In orca in a terminal environment I can use vi variants other than elvis by use of the -e option. That -e option turns what would be a screen-oriented editor into a line-oriented editor. Once that happens I can confidently know I'll be working with smaller objects than the entire screen. When I used dos professionally my go to tool for editing was edlin and not edit. I can and do use emacs but not to the level the experts with emacs do.
Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> . On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote: > Let me chime in here from the opposition point of view. > > Having used both the paid screen readers (JAWS and also GwMicro) and many of > the free screen readers, The paid ones may have more features and are > probably tuned a bit more closely to work in a specified OS, but the free > ones often times offer more latitude when dealing with non-standard content. > > Now, some other considerations, not all computer systems can handle a full > GUI (case in point: the RaspberryPi 3 series of which I have 1). So, the use > of a console there is a must and I use several of the console available > screen readers, Like BrltTY, Emacsspeak, Speakup and others). There are times > when this is very useful when the full GUI might present some issues. > > Now, this doesn?t mean I haven?t stopped using full GUI interfaces. I have, > for the most part, stuck with either JAWS or NVDA on windows (what one can?t > read, the other might), Voiceover on OS X and any of the half dozen or so > screen readers available in Linux (ORCA being the primary for GUI and > anything else for console as needed). Each has their flaws and each has their > strengths and it doesn?t hurt to know them all. Believe me, try using VI or > NANO in a terminal with ORCA. It doesn?t work very well. However, the others > work very well there, but not so well inside the GUI. It all depends on what > you need to do. It?s called using the right tool for the right job. > > -Eric > From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Tool Maintenance Dept. > > > > On Aug 16, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Linux for blind general discussion > > <blinux-list@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a rumor. > > It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing strenuously > > against the policy. I can give you names of people at the NFB who backed > > the policy if you'd like. > > > > The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good as > > one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little motivation > > to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be enough to drive > > Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I felt that reasoning > > was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source screen readers were > > right around the corner anyway. I believe I was using Speakup and something > > called Nupernicus on Linux at the time. > > > > This is absolutely not a rumor. > > > > > > On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times. > >> Glenn > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "John G. Heim" <jh...@wisc.edu> > >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen" > >> <but...@shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewel...@shellworld.net> > >> Cc: <spea...@linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <p...@zamazal.org>; > >> <Blinux-list@redhat.com> > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM > >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >> > >> > >> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* > >> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you > >> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very > >> sadly mistaken. > >> > >> > >> > >> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the > >>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy. > >>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems, > >>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society > >>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in > >>> skills and high expectations. > >>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of > >>> choice. > >>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is > >>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact > >>> that > >>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other > >>> organization in interpersonal staff issues. > >>> And choice does not mean training center choices. > >>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course > >>> in > >>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice > >>> in > >>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices > >>> will > >>> reach the same end result. > >>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to > >>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no > >>> questions asked. > >>> They would not have to fight to get it. > >>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the > >>> software that the counselor wants them to have. > >>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well > >>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up. > >>> > >>> Glenn > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Butch Bussen" <but...@shellworld.net> > >>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewel...@shellworld.net> > >>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <spea...@linux-speakup.org>; "Milan > >>> Zamazal" <p...@zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list@redhat.com> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM > >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >>> > >>> > >>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and > >>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get > >>> them to buy window-eyes. > >>> 73 > >>> Butch > >>> WA0VJR > >>> Node 3148 > >>> Wallace, ks. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote: > >>> > >>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws? > >>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works > >>>> exactly. > >>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws > >>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive > >>>> program instead of a largely free one. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Karen, > >>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws. > >>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors > >>>>> will > >>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws. > >>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't > >>>>> know > >>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need > >>>>> to > >>>>> learn one of the two. > >>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the > >>>>> employer > >>>>> will allow. > >>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws > >>>>> scripters > >>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers. > >>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in > >>>>> the > >>>>> business I can say is rubbish. > >>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be > >>>>> chosen, > >>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels > >>>>> is > >>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching. > >>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational > >>>>> purchases, > >>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best > >>>>> interest > >>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR > >>>>> expenditures do. > >>>>> Glenn > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewel...@shellworld.net> > >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> > >>>>> Cc: <spea...@linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <p...@zamazal.org>; > >>>>> <Blinux-list@redhat.com> > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded, > >>>>> the > >>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their > >>>>> clients > >>>>> is quite poor. > >>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making, > >>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really > >>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request. > >>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we > >>>>> are > >>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux, > >>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give > >>>>> you > >>>>> an > >>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool. > >>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client. > >>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would > >>>>>> advocate > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific > >>>>>> job. > >>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> work related situations. > >>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed > >>>>>> purchase a JFL product. > >>>>>> Glenn > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewel...@shellworld.net> > >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> > >>>>>> Cc: <spea...@linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <p...@zamazal.org>; > >>>>>> <Blinux-list@redhat.com> > >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM > >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux > >>>>>> list > >>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say > >>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative. > >>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they > >>>>>> market > >>>>>> to the American rehab community. > >>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the > >>>>>> need > >>>>>> for choices? > >>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux? > >>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality > >>>>>> speech > >>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. > >>>>>> everyone > >>>>>> brings their needs to the table there. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there > >>>>>> is > >>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why > >>>>>>> FS > >>>>>>> would > >>>>>>> not be able to do the same. > >>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game > >>>>>>> changer, > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing > >>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought. > >>>>>>> Glenn > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewel...@shellworld.net> > >>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email> > >>>>>>> Cc: <spea...@linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <p...@zamazal.org>; > >>>>>>> <Blinux-list@redhat.com> > >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being > >>>>>>> bought > >>>>>>> by another company. > >>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> Linux. > >>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You > >>>>>>> can > >>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various > >>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and > >>>>>>> options > >>>>>>> for creativity. > >>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical > >>>>>>> characteristics, > >>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these. > >>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple > >>>>>>> efforts > >>>>>>> at > >>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive > >>>>>>> tools > >>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system. > >>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at > >>>>>>> least, > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the > >>>>>>> former > >>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work. > >>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid. > >>>>>>> Just my thoughts, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux. > >>>>>>>> JFL > >>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring > >>>>>>>> many > >>>>>>>> more > >>>>>>>> users into Linux. > >>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than > >>>>>>>> Orca. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Glenn > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <p...@zamazal.org> > >>>>>>>> To: <spea...@linux-speakup.org> > >>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list@redhat.com> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewel...@shellworld.net> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> writes: > >>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he > >>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous, > >>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility > >>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he > >>>>>>>> has > >>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Karen, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and > >>>>>>>> qualifications. > >>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and > >>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical > >>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better > >>>>>>>> informed. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???, > >>>>>>>> what > >>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard > >>>>>>>> desktop > >>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common > >>>>>>>> blind > >>>>>>>> user > >>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process > >>>>>>>> text > >>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer > >>>>>>>> hired > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the > >>>>>>>> kinds > >>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at > >>>>>>>> his > >>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones > >>>>>>>> and I > >>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work > >>>>>>>> on > >>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I > >>>>>>>> do. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>> Milan > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > _______________________________________________ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
