Hi,

Unfortunately overflow:overlay is a non-standard feature and won't be
coming back. Ultimately, scrollbar behaviors like this are something that
has to be handled at the UA/OS level on behalf of the user, not
controllable by the web developer.

On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 4:19 PM Justin Mayfield <[email protected]> wrote:

> Chris,
>
> Has there been any more internal discussion or progress on
> "overflow:overlay" support being brought back?  If not, can you make
> suggestions for how this subject might be promoted?  Discussion here (
> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6090) has been shut down
> unfortunately and I'm afraid this thread is dark now too.
>
> Justin
>
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 6:14 PM Justin Mayfield <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestion,  Unfortunately this does not seem ready for
>> primetime in my initial test.  For this to work as I need, I have to
>> disable my custom scrollbars as they are always treated like non-overlay
>> scrollbars (ie. they impinge when visible no matter what).  So disabling my
>> custom scrollbar (which I really don't want to do, but could live with)
>> results in a flashing scrollbar whenever my content updates.  Hopefully
>> this is just a bug that will be worked out soon.  Attached video showing
>> flashing scrollbar whenever a new paint occurs (note: not hovered for most
>> of the video and it still flashes the bar).
>>
>> I'm compelled to leave a little negative feedback at the lack of overlap
>> between the CSS deprecation and completion of #overlay-scrollbars.  I've
>> read the arguments and while I don't agree with many of them (specifically
>> no-true-scotsman arguments about how good UX should not use un-impinging
>> scrollbars), I can understand not wanting to carry a non-spec feature
>> forevermore but this feature has been in place for a VERY long time and it
>> works wonderfully for those of us that use it.  The fact that
>> #overlay-scollbars is a WIP should have been plenty of justification for
>> holding off on the CSS deprecation until that work was fully vetted,
>> delivered and adopted. -2c
>>
>> Thanks for engaging and attempting to help all the same.
>>
>> Justin
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 4:44 PM Chris Harrelson <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 3:57 PM Justin Mayfield <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the link Chris.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately that does not work for my use-case as it's very important
>>>> for my UX that the margins are perfectly balanced in the un-hover state.
>>>> So as ugly as the layout shift is, it's actually better than always having
>>>> the scrollbar impinging, visible or otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> In that thread I see you also mentioned that work is being done to
>>>> support cross platform overlay style bars for chromium (Awesome!).  Can we
>>>> just rollback this deprecation until that work is completed so myself and
>>>> other users of this feature (however fringe) can continue using modern
>>>> versions of chromium?  Otherwise I'll have to stay on an old version of
>>>> Electron/Chromium until the new overlay support is available.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately we won't be able to roll it back. There is however an
>>> experimental command line flag you might be able to set temporarily:
>>> --enable-features=OverlayScrollbar.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> PS:  In the other threads guidance, you recommend trying `visibility:
>>>> hidden` in conjunction with `scrollbar-gutter: stable`, but the latter is
>>>> not needed since visibility states don't affect layout.
>>>> On Monday, July 17, 2023 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-6 Chris Harrelson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Justin,
>>>>>
>>>>> You may find the suggestions in my email here
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/sxa8e66wQQQ/m/NitV9vxCAgAJ>
>>>>> helpful for adjustments for your situation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 6:24 PM Justin Mayfield <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm being negatively affected by this change.  I make an Electron app
>>>>>> that contains many widget style windows that overlay the screen.  My 
>>>>>> users
>>>>>> place and size these windows with pixel perfect accuracy and I use custom
>>>>>> scrollbars that are hidden unless `:hover` is true.  In conjunction with
>>>>>> `overflow: overlay` there was no layout shifting on all platforms before
>>>>>> 114, but now my windows visibly jank quite badly when hovered because of
>>>>>> the layout shift.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any suggestions on how I might achieve the pre 114 `overflow:
>>>>>> overlay` behavior?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Attached video demo of before [7] and after [8] behavior.
>>>>>> On Friday, April 7, 2023 at 9:34:36 AM UTC-6 Yoav Weiss wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 8:47 PM Chris Harrelson <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 9:21 PM Yoav Weiss <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 2:37 AM Chris Harrelson <
>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Contact [email protected]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Specification
>>>>>>>>>> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-overflow-3/#valdef-overflow-auto
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Summary
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Removes the overflow:overlay scrolling mode, and makes overlay a
>>>>>>>>>> legacy alias of auto. overflow:overlay is the same as overflow:auto, 
>>>>>>>>>> except
>>>>>>>>>> that it does not prevent content from extending into the scrollbar 
>>>>>>>>>> gutter,
>>>>>>>>>> in cases where non-overlay OS scrollbars are present. (If overlay
>>>>>>>>>> scrollbars are present, there is no effect.) Example: With
>>>>>>>>>> overflow:overlay: https://output.jsbin.com/yujenuq/quiet With
>>>>>>>>>> overflow:auto: https://output.jsbin.com/ruzogaf/quiet
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which platforms would one see a difference between these two? (I'm
>>>>>>>>> not seeing a difference on MacOS)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To see a difference you will have to turn on non-overlay scrollbars
>>>>>>>> in the macOS settings. This feature only has an effect for cases where 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> OS provides non-overlay scrollbars.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tried it out and I now understand that my question RE triggering
>>>>>>> layout shifts doesn't make sense, as the non-overlay scrollbars are 
>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>> Also, this is a significantly better user experience, so it
>>>>>>> makes perfect sense to do this! :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also: note that this is an I2P, not an I2S. I have not yet done a
>>>>>>>> thorough compatibility analysis of existing sites, but plan to do it 
>>>>>>>> soon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Blink componentBlink>Scroll
>>>>>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EScroll>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TAG review
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TAG review statusNot applicable
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Risks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Developers currently relying on content overlapping the scrollbar
>>>>>>>>>> gutter would instead see some additional line wrapping. Users, on 
>>>>>>>>>> the other
>>>>>>>>>> hand, would be able to see more content that is currently invisible
>>>>>>>>>> underneath a scrollbar.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming that content would avoid overlapping with the gutter
>>>>>>>>> before scrolling ever starts, right? (rather than triggering layout 
>>>>>>>>> shifts
>>>>>>>>> once the user scrolls)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On platform configurations with overlay scrollbars in the OS,
>>>>>>>>>> this change has no effect; it only applies to situations where a
>>>>>>>>>> non-overlay scrollbar is configured by the browser. Use counter:
>>>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/2995
>>>>>>>>>> Adoption is more than 2% of page loads.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Gecko*: Shipped/Shipping (
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/768)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/157)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Web developers*: No signals
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Debuggability
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sites might not know why their line wrapping changed to exclude
>>>>>>>>>> the scrollbar gutter. However, this is the existing behavior in 
>>>>>>>>>> Firefox and
>>>>>>>>>> Safari, so they would get interop by default.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms
>>>>>>>>>> (Windows, Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?
>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
>>>>>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md>
>>>>>>>>>> ?Yes
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Flag nameOverflowOverlayAliasesAuto
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome?No
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Estimated milestones
>>>>>>>>>> Shipping on desktop 114
>>>>>>>>>> DevTrial on desktop 114
>>>>>>>>>> Shipping on Android 114
>>>>>>>>>> DevTrial on Android 114
>>>>>>>>>> Shipping on WebView 114
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status
>>>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5194091479957504
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status
>>>>>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/>.
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAOMQ%2Bw-F4mOhUMuU3nw423C8CurZKX_wxQvXRPv-XT4Zhsm-XQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>> .
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>>>>>>
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