On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 9:19 AM Jeff Brantley <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:52:23 PM UTC-6, Martin Blais wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 11:23 PM Jeff Brantley <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> The vesting cookbook details a way to account for RSUs, and elsewhere >>> there is occasional mention of tracking paid time off (PTO) as a commodity >>> VACHR (vacation hours), though I've not seen as much detail on the latter. >>> There appears to be some similarity here, as both situations represent >>> credit for future income---income which the US IRS considers to have >>> occurred upon that future date. >>> >> >> In the case of vacation the IRS is not involved; it's your employer who >> is tracking the amount of accumulated vacation hours they owe you. >> >> We're in agreement here. I'm saying the IRS doesn't care when I accrue > vacation or get an unvested stock grant, they care when I receive income > (which my employer may implicitly or explicitly attribute a portion of to > PTO taken) or when my shares vest. > > >> >>> For vacation, my employer's pay slips specifically split out what is >>> normally a single "salary" line item into salary and PTO pay, with an >>> effective hourly rate listed. >>> >> >> Perfect! >> FWIW mine doesn't, so this looks like a new case to me (does that mean >> you pay more taxes than I do? i.e., do you pay taxes on your received >> vacation equivalent? and if that's the case, if you converted to cash it >> would be already taxed money? Hmm. I doubt it.). >> >> > To be clear, I'm describing the case when I take vacation. I accrue > vacation as hours like a typical salaried job, with no corresponding tax at > that time. When I take vacation, my income and withholding are the same as > other paychecks (+/- 0.01 USD), but my payslip breaks the income line into > two lines, one showing hours * hourly-rate => vacation pay, and the other > line making up the difference to arrive at my normal income amount. > Oh I see now. Then I would just deduct from my vacation assets account at that point. TBH, that would be convenient if my own employer's payment processor did that; in my case it's a bit unclear what pay slip each vacation day goes unto, so I end up booking the vacation on dates between the pay dates in order to make it balance, and I visually cross-check against the records from Workday, which is the system that is used to request & report on time off. > Some companies also allow cashing out of vacation at various times, such >>> as when terminating one's employment. >>> >> >> Yep; and if you track it, you should be able to calculate precisely how >> much that check is going to be for. >> >> >> So, assuming one is booking VACHR or HOOL.UNVEST into Asset accounts, I >>> could see the "realization" date booking going one of two ways: >>> >> >> Note that - importantly - the VACHR units can convert to dollars and some >> non-zero value should appear on your balance sheet, and when you take >> vacations your balance sheet should diminish. I price those to estimated >> net salary / hours and insert new pricing directives if salary changes. >> This is not quite the case for granted but unvested RSUs; their present >> value is zero (until they vest). I price those to zero. >> >> Oh interesting; and one fewer oddball currency on the balance sheet. > >> >> Option 1) Directly cash in the commodity (with some made up numbers): >>> >>> 2018-01-15 * "Payroll" >>> ;Typical posting when no vacation taken: >>> ;Income:Hooli:Salary -2600.00 USD >>> Assets:Hooli:Vacation -8 VACHR @ 30.00 USD >>> Income:Hooli:Salary -2360.00 USD >>> ; ...postings to spend down 2600.00 USD in gross income... >>> >>> This lines up well with how my existing payslips are already structured, >>> using pricing (@) to directly capture the relationship between hours burned >>> and corresponding portion of gross income. This is a one-off price >>> conversion, too, I don't think VACHR or HOOL.UNVEST would want to be held >>> "at cost" right? >>> >> >> I don't track cost basis for either of those. In fact, it makes sense not >> to, say, if your hourly salary increases, the value of those accumulated >> hours implicitly increases automatically (there's no tax implication for >> this AFAIK). >> >> Right. > >> >> Option 2) >>> >>> 2018-01-15 * "Payroll" >>> Assets:Hooli:Vacation -8 VACHR >>> Expenses:[Hooli:]Vacation 8 VACHR ; not sure if I'd want the Hooli >>> segment to scope it >>> >> >> Not an expense. Only use the expense account when you "spend" your >> vacation hours (that is, you take vacation). Looks like the above. >> >> > But I *am* asking about how to book the case when I take a vacation. With > Option 1, I treat this as directly liquidating an existing asset of 8 > VACHR, whereas Option 2 shows the spending of VACHR coincident with > receiving income, a portion of which my employer attributes to the vacation > time used. > > >> Income:Hooli:Salary -240.00 USD ; could still choose to break this >>> out specifically >>> Income:Hooli:Salary -2360.00 USD >>> ; ...postings to spend down 2600.00 USD in gross income... >>> >>> In this case, the expended commodity is not as directly coupled to the >>> amount of cash realized, but this lines up better with the U.S. IRS view, >>> which is that I earned the corresponding income in 2018 (i.e., there is an >>> Income posting in a 2018-scoped transaction). Likewise with RSUs, where the >>> shares generally vest in a different year from that of the initial grant, >>> and the IRS sees income in the vesting year. >>> >> >> Do they? Are you taxed on the 240.00 USD? I don't think you must be. >> > > I think your surprise here is because you think I'm illustrating *accrual* > of vacation? In this case, the pay is a concrete 2600.00 USD, 240.00 USD of > which is attributed to taking some vacation time. All the other lines (tax > withholding, benefits, and net pay) are the same as any other paycheck, > within 0.01 USD anyway. > > >> >> Option 2 is what the Vesting cookbook suggests. >>> >> >> Actually I book the +8 VACHR asset against a -8 VACHR income account, >> like this: >> >> ... >> Assets:US:Hooli:Vacation 7.69 VACHR >> Income:US:Hooli:Vacation -7.69 VACHR >> >> these are tacked at the end of each of the regular payroll transactions I >> get. >> > > Yeah somehow we got out of sync about what we're discussing, accruing vs. > spending vacation. I'm asking about spending. I'm already on board with > what you show here for the accrual part. > > >> I suppose one way to look at this is to consider the my salary leg >> includes implicitly something like that above and I'm paying taxes on the >> vacation that way. >> If I were you, I'd do it the way I do, and book your income as -2600.00 >> USD (if you pay taxes on that amount). >> >> >> >> >>> I'm just wondering (a) if there were any additional considerations or >>> pros/cons behind this suggestion besides those I've mentioned, and (b) >>> whether Martin Blais or any others who track vacation do likewise when they >>> take vacation. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Beancount" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beancount/5eea9e36-d53a-42ac-ae05-de3c3a36bcfd%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beancount/5eea9e36-d53a-42ac-ae05-de3c3a36bcfd%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> > Crossed lines aside, it seems like this will mostly come down to what's > useful for reporting? Booking the use of vacation as directly liquidating a > VACHR asset fails to produce Income account activity at the moment the IRS > would "see" real income. Booking it as spending VACHR and getting income at > the same (or similar) date doesn't suffer from that drawback. Booking it as > returning VACHR to an Income account (an option #3) while getting USD > income seems plausible, but booking VACHR to Expenses actually lets you run > a report of how much vacation time you used up in a given period. > > > Regarding the forked portion of this thread, I want to make clear: I was > *not* implying that it was taking too long to get a reply when I said "As > I wait responses." I was trying to indicate that my own self-reply was not > a complete answer, so I still wanted to hear input from the list. > Absolutely no worries. (I'm way, way behind on my email and my Beancount inbox has grown to an unmanageable level. I'm trying to prioritize reading books and otherwise focused on work, I'll get to reply all the emails eventually, it'll take time, I'm basically prioritizing other goals for a while.) Thanks! > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Beancount" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beancount/9bc65982-8561-4f5c-9b52-943507fe4154%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/beancount/9bc65982-8561-4f5c-9b52-943507fe4154%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Beancount" group. 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