Framemarking is a normative dependency of draft-ietf-avtext-lrr (RFC 9627-to-be) but it’s just one sentence saying the data formats need to be aligned between the two specs if you support both, which could be dropped if we want to abandon framemarking.
> On Feb 12, 2025, at 12:12 AM, Murray S. Kucherawy <superu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > This has been in AUTH48 since August and not a single author has responded > here. That's pretty awful. > > Is there still any interest in seeing it published or should we abandon it? > I don't really want to hand any dead work to my successor or to Zahed. > > -MSK, ART AD > > On Fri, Feb 7, 2025 at 1:05 PM Jonathan Lennox <jonathan.len...@8x8.com > <mailto:jonathan.len...@8x8.com>> wrote: >> I’m not an author on this draft, but as chair I thought I would try to >> answer these questions, to make sure the process could get done. I spoke >> with Mo about these issues in Dublin and I think he’ll agree with all of >> these. Mo, please correct me if I’ve misunderstood anything. >> >> > On Aug 13, 2024, at 12:27 AM, rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org >> > <mailto:rfc-edi...@rfc-editor.org> wrote: >> > >> > Authors and *AD, >> > >> > [AD - please see question 4 below] >> > >> > While reviewing this document during AUTH48, please resolve (as necessary) >> > the following questions, which are also in the XML file. >> > >> > 1) <!-- [rfced] Please insert any keywords (beyond those that appear in >> > the title) for use on https://www.rfc-editor.org/search. --> >> >> Scalable video, h.264, h.265, vp9, layered video >> >> > 2) <!--[rfced] Please review whether "e.g." in the following should >> > instead be "i.e.": >> > >> > Original: >> > Because of inter-frame dependencies, it should ideally switch video >> > streams at a point where the first frame from the new speaker can be >> > decoded by recipients without prior frames, e.g. switch on an >> > intra-frame. >> >> An intra frame is the most common situation where a stream can be decoded >> without prior frames, but there are others for some codecs, so I think e.g. >> is appropriate here. >> >> >> > --> >> > >> > >> > 3) <!--[rfced] Should "field" or some other noun follow >> > "refresh_frame_flags" in this sentence? Or is this referring to >> > the flags (as the verb "are" is plural)? >> > >> > Original: >> > The D bit MUST be 1 if the refresh_frame_flags in the VP9 payload >> > uncompressed header are all 0, otherwise it MUST be 0. >> > --> >> >> I think “refresh_frame_flags bits" >> >> > >> > 4) <!--[rfced] [*AD] We see several (similar) sentences like the example >> > below where it might be difficult for the reader to correclty >> > understand what part(s) of the sentence the keyword MUST applies >> > to. We wonder if a rewrite may be helpful to the reader, >> > possibly using a list... Please see the example below (again, >> > other similar instances exist in the document) and let us know if >> > an update like one of the following might work. >> > >> > Original: >> > >> > The D bit MUST be 1 when the NAL unit header NRI field is 0, or an >> > aggregation packet or fragmentation unit encapsulating only NAL units >> > with NRI=0, otherwise it MUST be 0. >> > >> > Perhaps A (the "when" clause applies to both the D bit being set to 1 or >> > NRI=0): >> > >> > When the NAL unit header NRI field is 0, the D bit MUST be either 1 or >> > an aggregation packet or fragmentation unit encapsulating only NAL >> > units with NRI=0. When the NAL unit header NRI field is not set to 0, >> > the D bit MUST be 0. >> > >> > Perhaps B (the "when" clause only applies to the D bit being 0): >> > >> > The D bit MUST be: >> > >> > -1 when the NAL unit header NRI field is 0, >> > >> > -an aggregation packet or fragmentation unit encapsulating only NAL units >> > with NRI=0, or >> > >> > - 0. >> >> The D bit MUST be 1 if either: >> - The payload's NAL unit header’s NRI field is 0, or >> - The payload is an aggregation packet or fragmentation unit encapsulating >> only NAL units with NRI=0. >> Otherwise, it MUST be 0. >> >> > >> > 5) <!-- [rfced] Please review whether any of the notes in this document >> > should be in the <aside> element. It is defined as "a container for >> > content that is semantically less important or tangential to the >> > content that surrounds it" >> > (https://authors.ietf.org/en/rfcxml-vocabulary#aside). >> > --> >> > >> >> Both the two “Note:” comments could be <aside> elements. >> >> > >> > 6) <!--[rfced] May we update this sentence as follows for the ease of the >> > reader? Note that the introductory "when" phrase mentions a >> > single frame while the recommendation mentions plural frames: >> > please consider if further updates are necessary. >> > >> > Original: >> > When an RTP switch needs to discard a received video frame due to >> > congestion control considerations, it is RECOMMENDED that it >> > preferably drop frames marked with the D (Discardable) bit set, or the >> > highest values of TID and LID, which indicate the highest temporal and >> > spatial/quality enhancement layers, since those typically have fewer >> > dependenices on them than lower layers. >> > >> > >> > Perhaps A: >> > When an RTP switch needs to discard a received video frame due to >> > congestion control considerations, it is RECOMMENDED that it drop: >> > >> > - frames marked with the D (Discardable) bit set, or >> > >> > -frames with the highest values of TID and LID (which indicate the >> > highest temporal and spatial/quality enhancement layers) since those >> > typically have fewer dependencies on them than lower layers. >> > >> > Perhaps B (to upddate the sg/pl switch): >> > When an RTP switch needs to discard received video frames due to >> > congestion control considerations, it is RECOMMENDED that it drop: >> > >> > - frames marked with the D (Discardable) bit set, or >> > >> > -frames with the highest values of TID and LID (which indicate the >> > highest temporal and spatial/quality enhancement layers) since those >> > typically have fewer dependencies on them than lower layers. >> > >> > --> >> >> I’m missing something here because I don’t see the difference between these >> two options, but that text is fine. >> >> > 7) <!--[rfced] Please clarify what "and forward the same" means in this >> > text. >> > >> > Original: >> > When an RTP switch wants to forward a new video stream to a receiver, >> > it is RECOMMENDED to select the new video stream from the first >> > switching point with the I (Independent) bit set in all spatial >> > layers and forward the same. >> > --> >> >> Perhaps “and forward the stream from that point on”. >> >> > 8) <!--[rfced] How may we update this text to more easily illustrate the >> > 1:1 mapping between initialism and expansion? >> > >> > Original: >> > ... source to generate a switching point by sending Full Intra >> > Request (RTCP FIR) as defined in [RFC5104]... >> > >> > Perhaps: >> > ... source to generate a switching point by sending RTCP Full Intra >> > Request (FIR) as defined in [RFC5104]... >> > >> > --> >> >> That’s fine. >> >> > >> > >> > 9) <!--[rfced] In the following, are "layer" and "refreshes" redundant >> > with what LRR stands for? Please let us know if any updates are >> > necessary. >> > >> > Original: >> > Because frame marking can only be used with temporally-nested >> > streams, temporal-layer LRR refreshes are unnecessary for frame- >> > marked streams. >> > >> > As expanded it would be: >> > Because frame marking can only be used with temporally nested >> > streams, temporal-layer Layer Refresh Request (LRR) refreshes are >> > unnecessary for frame-marked streams. >> > --> >> >> Perhaps “temporal-layer refreshes requested with an LRR message” would avoid >> the duplicative language? >> >> > 10) <!-- [rfced] Would you like the references to be alphabetized or left >> > in their current order? >> > --> >> >> This is something where the RFC Editor’s style guide should dictate, I don’t >> think there’s any particular preference for a specific reference order. >> > >> > >> > 11) <!-- [rfced] We had the following questions related to abbreviations >> > used throughout the document. >> > >> > a) Please note that we have expanded these abbreviations as follows on >> > first use. Please let us know any objections. >> > >> > MCU - Multipoint Control Unit (per RFC 7667) >> > SRTP - Secure Real-time Transport Protocol >> > IDR - Instantaneous Decoding Refresh (per RFC 6184) >> > SDES - source description >> > NAL - Network Abstraction Layer >> > CRA - Clean Random Access >> > BLA - Broken Link Access >> > RAP - Random Access Point >> > AVC - Advanced Video Coidng (per RFC 6184) >> > SVC - Scalable Video Coding (per RFC 6190) >> > PACSI - Payload Content Scalability Information >> > NRI - Network Remote Identification >> >> No; the field in the H.264 specification is actually formally named >> “nal_ref_idc”. I believe this stands for something like Network Adaptation >> Layer Reference Indication but as far as I can tell it’s never explicitly >> spelled out in that specification as far as I can tell. >> >> > VPS - Video Parameter Set >> > SPS - Sequence Parameter Set >> > PPS - Picture Parameter Set >> >> The other abbreviations all seem to be correct. >> >> > >> > b) Please clarify if/how we may expand the following abbreviations: >> > >> > VPX >> > PACI - is this intentionally different from PACSI? >> >> Yes; the protocol element field is called PACI in RFC 7798 (for H.265) vs. >> PACSI in RFC 6190 (for H.264-SVC). >> >> > c) Should "intra (IDR)" frames instead be "IDR intra-frames"? This >> > formation occurs twice in this document. >> >> Intra frames are the common term, IDR is the more formal term, so this is a >> clarification with two synonymous terms, not a restrictive adjective. >> >> > >> > d) Please note that the following similar abbreviations appear to be >> > differently treated with regard to punctuation: >> > >> > H264 (AVC) >> > H264-SVC >> > >> > We have expanded the abbreviations on first use, but please let us >> > know if/how these should be made uniform with regard to parens and >> > hyphantion. >> > >> > See also our cluster-wide question regarding H264 vs. H.264. >> > --> >> >> Names of ITU specs (H.264 and H.265) should include the dot character. >> >> AVC and SVC are not parallel; AVC is the title of the H.264 specification as >> a whole, whereas SVC refers specifically to the extensions to it specified >> in Annex F. Thus the parentheses for the former (as an explanatory synonym) >> vs. the hyphen for the latter (as a restriction). >> >> >> > 12) <!--[rfced] We had the following questions related to terminology used >> > throughout the document. >> > >> > a) Two questions about the header extension: >> > >> > Should this RTP header extension appear using "Video" throughout? We >> > see both of the following forms. >> > >> > Video Frame Marking RTP header extension vs. Frame Marking RTP header >> > extension >> >> Yes, I think having Video throughout is good. >> >> > >> > Secondly, in the Abstract, we see: >> > >> > Original: >> > This document describes a Video Frame Marking RTP header extension >> > used to convey information about video frames that is critical for >> > error recovery and packet forwarding in RTP middleboxes or network >> > nodes. >> > >> > Is the use of the indefinite article "a" intentional ("a Video Frame >> > Marking RTP header extension")? This seems (possibly) contradictory >> > with the capitalization of the proper noun and use in Section 3 (are >> > there more types of Video Frame Marking RTP header extensions?). >> > Please review. >> > --> >> >> There certainly are other RTP header extensions that mark video frames, >> though none of them have been standardized by the IETF as yet; I think >> that’s why there is the indefinite article here. >> >> > >> > >> > 13) <!-- [rfced] Please review the "Inclusive Language" portion of the >> > online Style Guide >> > <https://www.rfc-editor.org/styleguide/part2/#inclusive_language> >> > and let us know if any changes are needed. Updates of this >> > nature typically result in more precise language, which is >> > helpful for readers. >> > >> > Note that our script did not flag any words in particular, but this >> > should still be reviewed as a best practice. >> > >> > --> >> >> I don’t see any problems. >> >> > >> > >> > Thank you. >> > >> > RFC Editor/mf >> > >> > *****IMPORTANT***** >> > >> > Updated 2024/08/12 >> > >> > RFC Author(s): >> > -------------- >> > >> > Instructions for Completing AUTH48 >> > >> > Your document has now entered AUTH48. 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Zanaty, E. Berger, S. Nandakumar >> > WG Chair(s) : Dr. Bernard D. Aboba, Jonathan Lennox >> > Area Director(s) : Zaheduzzaman Sarker, Francesca Palombini >> > >> > >>
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