Hi David,

Section 4 requests are still relevant for the waiting list and critical 
infrastructure, but little else. That said, there have been efforts in the past 
to obliterate Section 4 wholesale and replace it with a much more concise text, 
but those never had much support. I’d be happy to try again in the name of 
simplification, but that would be an entirely separate proposal.

-C

> On Dec 7, 2017, at 9:37 PM, David Huberman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Thank you for the clarification.  I think the staff practice is a reasonable 
> approach and I don’t think change is needed in policy for this.
> 
> The updated Problem Statement reveals the real issue here - the one we need 
> to figure out as a community.   What to do about all the requests each month 
> for IPv4 addresses under section 4? 
> 
> Is it time to pass a policy to direct staff to no longer accept section 4 
> requests (except the ones they still fill like critical infrastructure)? I 
> wonder what the downside of such a policy would be - anyone know?
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 7, 2017, at 11:47 PM, Andrew Dul <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> 
>> It was noted to me by ARIN staff, that this updated problem statement 
>> doesn't accurately reflect ARIN's current practice.  Below I suggest another 
>> updated problem statement.
>> 
>> Problem Statement: 
>> 
>> It was noted at the ARIN 40 Policy Experience Report, that there is an 
>> inconsistency in the initial block size for ISPs. Section 4.2.2 notes that 
>> the initial ISP block size should be /21 whereas the initial block size in 
>> 8.5.4 is noted as "minimum transfer size" which is effectively a /24. This 
>> causes ISP organizations to be approved for different initial block size 
>> depending on if they first apply apply for a transfer directly under section 
>> 8 or if they apply for a block under section 4.  This policy is intended to 
>> clarify this issue, by setting a consistent ISP initial IPv4 block size. It 
>> was noted that ARIN staff current operational practice is to allow qualified 
>> ISPs an initial /21 for Section 8 transfers when they first apply and are 
>> approved under section 4.  If an organization applies under section 8 first 
>> they are initially qualified for a /24, larger allocations require 
>> additional documentation as noted in 8.5.5.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/4/2017 1:30 PM, Andrew Dul wrote:
>>> Scott,  how would you feel about this proposed updated problem statement 
>>> which focuses on the current issue rather than the past.
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> 
>>> Problem Statement: 
>>> 
>>> It was noted at the ARIN 40 Policy Experience Report, that there is an 
>>> inconsistency in the initial block size for ISPs. Section 4.2.2 notes that 
>>> the initial ISP block size should be /21 whereas the initial block size in 
>>> 8.5.4 is noted as "minimum transfer size" which is effectively a /24. This 
>>> causes ISP organizations to be approved for different initial block size 
>>> depending on if they first apply apply for a           transfer directly 
>>> under section 8 or if they apply for a block under section 4.  This policy 
>>> is intended to clarify this issue, by setting a consistent ISP initial IPv4 
>>> block size. It was noted that ARIN staff current operational practice is to 
>>> allow all ISPs an initial /21 for Section 8 transfers. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/21/2017 9:19 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote:
>>>> I’d be ok with a /21, but there’s nothing magical about that size in a 
>>>> post-exhaustion world. I’d rather base a loosening on actual transfer 
>>>> statistics, and consider doing so for both allocations and assignments. 
>>>> 
>>>> Scott
>>>> 
>>>> On Nov 21, 2017, at 7:28 PM, Andrew Dul <[email protected] 
>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> It sounds like our recollections of what we intended for ISP initial 
>>>>> allocations have diverged. I will admit when I drafted the problem 
>>>>> statement I did not go back through email to see if there was anything 
>>>>> about this issue.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Assuming we harmonize the problem statement, would you prefer the /24 as 
>>>>> initial no questions asked size or a /21?
>>>>> 
>>>>> What do others prefer?
>>>>> 
>>>>> .Andrew
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 21, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Scott Leibrand <[email protected] 
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I believe this problem statement is incorrect, and therefore oppose the 
>>>>>> policy proposal as-is.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 8.5.4 was intended (by me, as one of the authors, and in PPML 
>>>>>> discussions I just pulled up) to allow ISPs to transfer a /24 without 
>>>>>> justification.  It was *not* intended to "match the previous policy" in 
>>>>>> 4.2.2.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 8.5.5 reads "8.5.5. Block size
>>>>>> Organizations may qualify for the transfer of a larger initial block, or 
>>>>>> an additional block, by providing documentation to ARIN which details 
>>>>>> the use of at least 50% of the requested IPv4 block size within 24 
>>>>>> months. An officer of the organization shall attest to the documentation 
>>>>>> provided to ARIN."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The intention was that any ISP needing a /21 would need to "provide 
>>>>>> documentation to ARIN which details the use of at least 50% of the 
>>>>>> requested IPv4 block size within 24 months", with officer attestation to 
>>>>>> same.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If that policy is deemed insufficient, and we believe it's better to 
>>>>>> allow transfers of up to /21 without providing documentation to ARIN and 
>>>>>> officer attestation of such, then this proposal would need to be 
>>>>>> re-written with a new problem statement justifying that.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Scott
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 2:40 PM, ARIN <[email protected] 
>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 16 November 2017, the ARIN Advisory Council (AC) advanced 
>>>>>> "ARIN-prop-244: Clarification of Initial Block Size for IPv4 ISP 
>>>>>> Transfers" to Draft Policy status.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Draft Policy ARIN-2017-9 is below and can be found at:
>>>>>> https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2017_9.html 
>>>>>> <https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2017_9.html>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You are encouraged to discuss all Draft Policies on PPML. The AC will 
>>>>>> evaluate the discussion in order to assess the conformance of this draft 
>>>>>> policy with ARIN's Principles of Internet number resource policy as 
>>>>>> stated in the Policy Development Process (PDP). Specifically, these 
>>>>>> principles are:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> * Enabling Fair and Impartial Number Resource Administration
>>>>>> * Technically Sound
>>>>>> * Supported by the Community
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The PDP can be found at:
>>>>>> https://www.arin.net/policy/pdp.html 
>>>>>> <https://www.arin.net/policy/pdp.html>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Draft Policies and Proposals under discussion can be found at:
>>>>>> https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/index.html 
>>>>>> <https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/index.html>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sean Hopkins
>>>>>> Policy Analyst
>>>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Draft Policy ARIN-2017-9: Clarification of Initial Block Size for IPv4 
>>>>>> ISP Transfers
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Problem Statement:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It was noted at the ARIN 40 Policy Experience Report, that there is an 
>>>>>> inconsistency in the initial block size for ISPs. Section 4.2.2 notes 
>>>>>> that the initial ISP block size should be /21 whereas the initial block 
>>>>>> size in 8.5.4 is noted as "minimum transfer size" which is effectively a 
>>>>>> /24. The intent of the new 8.5.4 was to match the previous policy. This 
>>>>>> policy is intended to clarify this issue. It was noted that ARIN staff 
>>>>>> current operational practice is to allow ISPs an initial /21 for Section 
>>>>>> 8 transfers.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Policy statement:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Add the following to 8.5.4
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ISP organizations without direct assignments or allocations from ARIN 
>>>>>> qualify for an initial allocation of up to a /21.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Comments:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> a. Timetable for implementation: Immediate
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>> 
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