On the flip side, we need a currency to remove Blots. I'm hesitant to make it fabric because I think it should be a "basic" (unrefined, provided by payday). I might be convinced otherwise though.
On your longer post, I agree - I don't think we're too far off balance and can get there with minor tweaks after we see how this plays out for a month or two. I think the first minor tweak I'd try (if the imbalance grows) has already been suggested - upkeep costs for zombies similar to land upkeep. On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Reuben Staley wrote: > Currently, fabric is only used in some upper-level rank-up payments. I think > it is the least useful of the nine economic assets right now. If someone > wanted to help with that, I would appreciate it lots. > > On 4/11/2018 9:33 PM, Ned Strange wrote: > > I do have a question. What does fabric do? > > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Reuben Staley <reuben.sta...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > After thinking this whole thing through, I'm not sure that it's actually a > > > problem if people with zombies have tons of money. It's completely > > > possible > > > to amass a fortune by living off of public land, so little guys can still > > > get money that they can spend on zombies and/or land eventually. The > > > monthly > > > salary ensures that less affluent players have a constant source of income > > > that they can use to survive. > > > > > > Included in the salary is 10 coins, 5 apples, and 2 papers. I will now > > > explain how this allows one to sustainably live. > > > > > > Having some coins ensures that a player can, with enough time, gain wealth > > > by using careful spending. If you don't purchase anything for two months > > > and > > > are just living off of the base salary, you have 20 coins. That's more > > > than > > > enough to buy land unit, as demonstrated by the previous land unit > > > auction, > > > where the highest selling unit was worth 16 coins. And as long as you take > > > some public action during that time, you are safe from the legal theft of > > > zombiehood. Additionally, with time, some land units will become more > > > valuable to control, leaving others neglected. Going for neglected land > > > units will make it so that you won't have to pay nearly as much to get > > > yourself started. > > > > > > Having some apples ensures that you can move around the map. Assuming you > > > stay around the origin, you can do a few rounds of nabbing stuffs to get > > > even more resources. Inconveniently, more coins are out of your reach, but > > > that's intentional since I wanted you to have to work for a little while > > > before you can basically print money. But, as demonstrated in the past few > > > weeks, you can get more apples and more corn from the preserved farm and > > > orchard, making it completely possible to stay living in the center of the > > > map for a while. > > > > > > Proposals are the most powerful thing in the game, and under the current > > > rules, you're guaranteed to be able to submit some every month because you > > > get two papers every month. Perhaps there can be a coin reward for a > > > proposal passing. I think we had that under the proportional economy > > > rules. > > > If we institute this change, then it provides incentive to create good > > > proposals. I think it would give these less affluent players more > > > opportunity as well, which is a good thing. > > > > > > But that's not even all of it. As we all know, officers are given 5 coins > > > and 1 corn at the beginning of the month for faithful service. Less > > > affluent > > > players can get a low-effort office that no one is currently occupying, > > > which allows them to receive extra income. But, as I've made clear before, > > > I'm dissatisfied with the way officers are paid, since some offices > > > clearly > > > require more recordkeeping than others. See this message[1] for my > > > previously published ideas on how to fix it. > > > > > > In conclusion, I think it's clear now that less affluent people actually > > > have way more opportunities than lots of people here estimate. Even still, > > > I > > > think some reforms are in order to improve the state of the economy, > > > namely > > > the officer fix and reinstitution of proposal rewards. > > > > > > It is because of all this that I don't think redistribution to poor > > > players > > > is the reform we need. > > > > > > [1] > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-discussion@agoranomic.org/msg42699.html > > > > > > > > > On 4/11/2018 5:58 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Reuben Staley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think Corona was talking about the thing where Agora would get all > > > > > the > > > > > money that people spent and distribute it tbuno the poorest players. > > > > > That > > > > > was > > > > > under the proportional economy where only 1000 shinies could exist. > > > > > > > > > > I think if we were to reimplement that system, it would be too easy to > > > > > scam, with zombies and contracts and whatnot, so I'm not sold just > > > > > yet. > > > > > If > > > > > another proposal comes forth proposing a different way of filtering > > > > > assets > > > > > back into the economy, I might be willing to support it. > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue I had with that system is you couldn't distinguish "poor > > > > because > > > > I don't have an income source/others are always ahead" from "poor > > > > because > > > > I > > > > had a bunch of money and just now spent it." If you award the latter it > > > > leads to weird incentive systems to either hold everything or spend > > > > everything but not to stay in between. > > > > > > > > In "game-balancing" here, there's two separate issues to think about: > > > > > > > > 1. Can someone get enough possessions to participate on a basic level > > > > on > > > > a > > > > regular basis? (e.g. by pending proposals, walking around the map, and > > > > other fixed-cost things to buy). For this, monthly salary takes care of > > > > it > > > > (more or less), secondarily land production. This was what > > > > redistribution > > > > was supposed to accomplish when salaries and land production didn't > > > > exist, > > > > but now that we have salaries that's fine (if it's not enough, just > > > > increase > > > > salary rather than adding a separate mechanism). > > > > > > > > 2. Is someone so far behind they can never be competitive in auctions? > > > > This is the bigger issue, if zombie-owners always earn at 2x the rate > > > > they > > > > will always outbid and raise prices. This is multiplicative - the more > > > > auctions they win, the more they get and so on so early leads build into > > > > big > > > > ones. Redistribution won't help that unless you redistribute so much > > > > that > > > > it wipes out all leads (if it does that, why would anyone bother to play > > > > the > > > > subgame?) > > > > > > > > There are ways to address both, but I don't think redistributing to > > > > poorest > > > > players addresses either? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 10:04 Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's what monthly salary is right? > > > > > > > > > > > > Problem of course is that applies to zombies too - excluding zombies > > > > > > from > > > > > > salary would balance though of course would devalue zombies. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was really surprised that the zombie auction prices were so low. > > > > > > In > > > > > > the > > > > > > current system, the ability to occupy multiple land units/move in > > > > > > multiple > > > > > > directions and place multiple bids in auctions is huge (that wasn't > > > > > > planned > > > > > > on my part when I made zombies - I was pretty much thinking of them > > > > > > as a > > > > > > way to get an extra vote or two). > > > > > > > > > > > > On the flip side, zombies are a precarious investment because you > > > > > > can > > > > > > lose > > > > > > them at any time. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 11 Apr 2018, Corona wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, it would be good IMO if something like the now repealed > > > > > > > redistribution of Agora's money to the poor was enacted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 11, 2018, Reuben Staley > > > > > > > <reuben.sta...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm starting to think I've opened a proverbial Pandora's Box of > > > > > > > > sorts > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the map and zombie mechanics are going to spiral out of > > > > > > > > control > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > create some ultra-capitalist society in the future. Oh well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 07:33 ATMunn <iamingodsa...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually I believe this failed, as I tried to move from black > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > white > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > by spending only one apple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I am still currently standing at (-1, +1) then I spend 2 > > > > > > > > > apples to > > > > > > > > > move to (-1, 0) and another to move to (-1, -1). > > > > > > > > > I then transfer all of the assets from the facility where I am > > > > > > > > > > > > standing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/11/2018 9:27 AM, ATMunn wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I transfer all of the assets where I am standing to me. > > > > > > > > > > I spend 1 apple to move to (-1, 0) and then another to move > > > > > > > > > > to (-1, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -1). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I then transfer all of the assets where I am standing to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also act on Nichdel's behalf to transfer all of eir assets > > > > > > > > > > to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/11/2018 2:22 AM, Reuben Staley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THE MAP OF ARCADIA -- APRIL 2, 2018 > > > > > > > > > > > View an interactive version of this report here: > > > > > > > > > > > https://agoranomic.org/Cartographor/maps/map-2018-04-11.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LAND TYPE MAP > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LONGITUDE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - 6543210123456 + > > > > > > > > > > > - - > > > > > > > > > > > 6 ************* 6 > > > > > > > > > > > 5 ************* 5 aether (*) > > > > > > > > > > > 4 ************* 4 (b)lack > > > > > > > > > > > L 3 ************* 3 (w)hite > > > > > > > > > > > A 2 ************* 2 > > > > > > > > > > > T 1 ****wwwbb**** 1 > > > > > > > > > > > I 0 ****wwbbb**** 0 > > > > > > > > > > > T 1 ****wwbbbw*** 1 > > > > > > > > > > > U 2 ******bwb**** 2 > > > > > > > > > > > D 3 ************* 3 > > > > > > > > > > > E 4 ************* 4 > > > > > > > > > > > 5 ************* 5 > > > > > > > > > > > 6 ************* 6 > > > > > > > > > > > + + > > > > > > > > > > > - 6543210123456 + > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OWNERSHIP MAP > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LONGITUDE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - 6543210123456 + > > > > > > > > > > > - - > > > > > > > > > > > 6 ************* 6 > > > > > > > > > > > 5 ************* 5 Agora, Aether (*) > > > > > > > > > > > 4 ************* 4 Agora, Non-Aether (.) > > > > > > > > > > > L 3 ************* 3 (G)aelan > > > > > > > > > > > A 2 ************* 2 (K)enyon > > > > > > > > > > > T 1 ****G...K**** 1 (T)rigon > > > > > > > > > > > I 0 ****T...C**** 0 (C)orona > > > > > > > > > > > T 1 ****C.....*** 1 > > > > > > > > > > > U 2 ******...**** 2 > > > > > > > > > > > D 3 ************* 3 > > > > > > > > > > > E 4 ************* 4 > > > > > > > > > > > 5 ************* 5 > > > > > > > > > > > 6 ************* 6 > > > > > > > > > > > + + > > > > > > > > > > > - 6543210123456 + > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRESERVATION MAP > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LONGITUDE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - 6543210123456 + > > > > > > > > > > > - - > > > > > > > > > > > 6 fffffffffffff 6 > > > > > > > > > > > 5 fffffffffffff 5 (t)rue > > > > > > > > > > > 4 fffffffffffff 4 (f)alse > > > > > > > > > > > L 3 fffffffffffff 3 > > > > > > > > > > > A 2 fffffffffffff 2 > > > > > > > > > > > T 1 ffffftttfffff 1 > > > > > > > > > > > I 0 ffffftttfffff 0 > > > > > > > > > > > T 1 ffffftttfffff 1 > > > > > > > > > > > U 2 fffffffffffff 2 > > > > > > > > > > > D 3 fffffffffffff 3 > > > > > > > > > > > E 4 fffffffffffff 4 > > > > > > > > > > > 5 fffffffffffff 5 > > > > > > > > > > > 6 fffffffffffff 6 > > > > > > > > > > > + + > > > > > > > > > > > - 6543210123456 + > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FACILITIES > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (-1, -1): Preserved Rank 1 Mine, owned by Agora > > > > > > > > > > > Assets: 3 stones, 2 ore > > > > > > > > > > > (-1, +1): Preserved Rank 1 Orchard, owned by Agora > > > > > > > > > > > Assets: 3 apples, 3 lumber > > > > > > > > > > > (+1, -1): Preserved Rank 1 Farm, owned by Agora > > > > > > > > > > > Assets: 3 corn, 3 cotton > > > > > > > > > > > (+1, +1): Preserved Rank 1 Mine, owned by Agora > > > > > > > > > > > Assets: 3 stones, 2 ore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOCATIONS OF ENTITIES > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Player Last report This Report > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > omd ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > o ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > Aris (-1, -1) (-1, -1) > > > > > > > > > > > DFF[1] ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > Quazie ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > P.S.S.[2] ( 0, 0) (-1, -1) > > > > > > > > > > > Gaelan ( 0, 0) (-1, -1) > > > > > > > > > > > nichdel ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > G. ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > Cuddlebeam (-1, -1) (-1, -1) > > > > > > > > > > > Trigon ( 0, 0) (+1, +2) > > > > > > > > > > > Telnaior ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > Corona ( 0, 0) (+1, +1) > > > > > > > > > > > pokes ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > Murphy ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > VJ Rada ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > Kenyon (-1, +1) (-1, +1) > > > > > > > > > > > ATMunn (-1, +1) (-1, +1) > > > > > > > > > > > Ouri ( 0, 0) ( 0, 0) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]: In Full, 天火狐 > > > > > > > > > > > [2]: In Full, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ALTERNATING LAND TYPE > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The alternating land type has been switched 4 times. > > > > > > > > > > > The current value is Black. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CHANGES IN LAND TYPE AND OWNERSHIP > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date Unit From To > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > 2018-04-09 (-1, +2) Agora Kenyon > > > > > > > > > > > 2018-04-09 ( 0, -2) Agora Trigon > > > > > > > > > > > 2018-04-09 (+1, -2) Agora Corona > > > > > > > > > > > 2018-04-09 ( 0, +2) Agora Corona > > > > > > > > > > > 2018-04-10 (-1, -2) Agora Gaelan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ¯Corona > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > > > http://www.avg.com > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Trigon > > > > > > > > -- > Trigon >
