Towns. Curb and gutter streets Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2025, at 3:39 PM, Ken Hohhof <khoh...@kwom.com> wrote: > > Town or country? > > -----Original Message----- > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Chuck > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2025 4:32 PM > To: af@af.afmug.com > Cc: af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > All of the large builds like Google fiber are 100% microtrenching. One of my > customers had a crew build 11,505’ in one shift last week. > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 23, 2025, at 3:1 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> wrote: >> >> But I can't imagine it's incredibly useful in most places. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@go-mtc.com> >> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 4:45:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD >> >> >> >> >> >> Microtrenching is much faster and cheaper than HDD. >> >> >> >> >> >> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 12:57 PM >> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD >> >> >> >> >> $15-20/splice was normal in the past. Volume went way up, and the >> contractors are in high demand. An NY specific issue that compounded the >> problem was a new rule that you have to pay prevailing wage anytime you're >> doing work in a ROW where a permit was required. That drove up even the >> non-PW work because they'd rather do the PW work and there's enough volume >> that they can be choosy about it. >> >> >> >> >> >> Check out the numbers below from a contractor. This chart makes me want to >> buy a splice truck and quit this whole "engineer" thing. If you want to send >> a crew to NY we'll put them to work and they'll get rates like these all day >> long. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> PW >> >> >> >> >> Non PW >> >> >> per location >> >> >> ct Splice Loc >> >> >> Rate >> >> >> ct Splice Loc >> >> >> Rate >> >> >> OFDC/ Wall Panel >> >> >> 0 >> >> >> $72.00 >> >> >> 0 >> >> >> $45.00 >> >> >> 450B >> >> >> 0 >> >> >> $60.00 >> >> >> 0 >> >> >> $37.50 >> >> >> 450D >> >> >> 0 >> >> >> $52.00 >> >> >> 0 >> >> >> $32.50 >> >> >> 600D >> >> >> 0 >> >> >> $48.00 >> >> >> 0 >> >> >> $30.00 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Underground is a separate nightmare. We do it for make-ready avoidance or in >> neighborhoods without existing aerial. Almost everything needs HDD, and the >> per foot rates would make your eyes water. Or maybe make your mouth water if >> you have a crew that will travel to NY for work. >> >> >> >> >> >> We do have internal crews, and they are absolutely less costly than the >> contractors, but scaling requires more hands. We also need to be able to >> ramp up and down, and it's bad optics to hire a bunch of people for >> construction work and then have to lay them off when the projects are >> finished and you're waiting to get your next build areas approved by the >> board. >> >> >> >> >> >> This is the much-vaunted efficiency of corporations. The secret is they're >> not efficient at all -they just have lots of capital to make things happen. >> Where your ROI is 10% theirs might be 5%, but 5% of $100 billion is more >> than 10% of whatever you have. >> >> >> >> >> >> -Adam >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: AF on behalf of Chuck McCown >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 2:07 PM >> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD >> >> >> >> >> I learned my lesson on make ready years ago, so I am 100% underground now. >> And frankly, I only splice what I need on the large count cables. We splice >> them ourselves so not much cost there. I have never seen $41/burn before. >> Most of the time when we were burning for money we were happy to get $16. >> BTW, I hate splicing ribbon. Seems almost impossible to get 12 perfect >> splices. >> >> >> >> >> From: AF [ mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 11:59 AM >> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < af@af.afmug.com > >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD >> >> >> >> Yeah, city and county permits aren't usually bad. People mean different >> things when they say "permit", though. The elco technically is licensing us >> to make an attachment to a pole, but people often call it a "pole permit". >> We have to complete all the make ready before we're licensed to attach and >> make ready is usually the killer. Pole attachment application fees have been >> north of $150/pole in NY since about 2015 when the Elco's outsourced the >> engineering work. NYDOT permits need engineer stamped drawings, and the >> details they require are time consuming. RR crossings can be ridiculous. >> Overall, the cable and placement of the cable makes up about 1/3 of the >> cost. So we do spend twice as much on all the crap it takes to get there. >> >> >> >> In that light it's very tempting to say that placing a 288 vs a 96 isn't >> that big of a deal, but it does start to look like a big deal once you add >> everything up. Contractors charge per splice. Butt splicing a 288 is like >> $12,000....more if it's prevailing wage. Your reel length is constrained by >> the size and weight of reel that your equipment can handle. Corning ALTOS >> 288F weighs twice as much as their 96F, so your doing 3x the splices twice >> as often for ultimately 6x the splicing cost. It also means bigger closures >> everywhere you're tapping into that cable. It does all add up. >> >> >> >> -Adam >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: AF on behalf of Chuck McCown >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 11:29 AM >> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD >> >> >> >> I have not found permitting, engineering or fees to be all the expensive as >> long as you are not dealing with federal lands. Most cities are very >> reasonable. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: AF [ mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mark >> Radabaugh >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2025 5:54 PM >> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD >> >> The extra fiber needed to do AE isn’t a big deal when you are building >> centralized split architecture in mid to dense population areas, but it >> becomes pretty cost prohibitive quickly in low density and with NG2-PON on >> the horizon with the capability of delivering 10G/10G over a 40G capacity >> PON I don’t see much need for AE anytime soon. >> >> Why is is so expensive? Fiber isn’t expensive - it’s the permitting, >> engineering, fees to every government entity, paperwork, etc. that you have >> to pay. >> >> Mark >> >>>> On Mar 21, 2025, at 4:49 PM, dbernardi < dberna...@zitomedia.net > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> But the expensive/important part (fiber) is in place. If the gubment is >>> going to piss away tax dollars for unserved/underserved broadband, fiber >>> construction seems like a decent urinal. >>> >>> XGS-PON can co-exist with GPON on the same fiber so eventual upgrades are >>> fairly easy. Do combo GPON/XGS-PON at the OLT out of the gate so a CPE swap >>> is the only thing require for an upgrade to a shared 10Gb service. When >>> XGS-PON isn't enough bandwidth for the 32 subscribers on a PON, I'd rather >>> replace equipment at either end than deal with another construction >>> project. Or do a 1:16 split. >>> >>> Preparing for AE when doing the construction is probably worthwhile too >>> even if you only light for PON initially, or mix/match. The cost of >>> deploying high count fiber cable isn't that significant in the big picture. >>> >>> And why does fiber construction have to be so (artificially?) expensive. >>> Buy America will certainly make broadband deployments more expensive but >>> that's a good thing if it truly provides jobs and manufacturing investment, >>> but I have my doubts. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 3/21/2025 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: >>>> Is GPON good enough? That can only do gigabit and each port is 2.5G. >>>> Should these projects require NGPON? Or maybe every location should have >>>> AE so they can do 100G to start with. >>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 2:01 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com < >>>>> mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >> wrote: >>>> Because in X years they won't be. With fiber they will be upon the >>>> same Infrastructure. >>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025, 10:59 AM Josh Luthman >>>> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com < mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com >> >>>> wrote: >>>> But people that currently have fixed wireless of 100x20 are >>>> sufficiently served? How does that make any sense? >>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 11:44 AM Steve Jones >>>> <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com < mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >> >>>> wrote: >>>> they should not allow fixed wireless, they never should have allowed >>>> technology with a short shelf life On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 9:17 AM >>>> Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com < mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com >> >>>> wrote: >>>> Well.... >>>> https://bsky.app/profile/craigsilverman.bsky.social/ >>>> post/3lkiye5n2dk2p < https://bsky.app/profile/ >>>> craigsilverman.bsky.social/post/3lkiye5n2dk2p> >>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/seq3uoU1L5 >>>> < https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/seq3uoU1L5 > The director of >>>> BEAD quit. He says the previous rules interpreted the bill to mean >>>> that only FTTH would meet the performance and future-proofing >>>> requirements. He is claiming that there are proposed rule changes >>>> that will allow Starlink but not allow fixed wireless. I don't know >>>> whether the changes /intentionally/ benefit Starlink, but this guy >>>> is crying foul and felt strongly enough about it to resign over it. >>>> -Adam >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> *From:* AF on behalf of Ken Hohhof >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 12:19 AM >>>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' >>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] BEAD >>>> I’m surprised BEAD hasn’t run into problems because the E stands for >>>> Equity and DEI is now banned. >>>> But if they eliminate the E, would it just be BAD? >>>> -- AF mailing list >>>> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > >>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>> < http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >>>> -- AF mailing list >>>> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > >>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>> < http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >>>> -- AF mailing list >>>> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > >>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com <[http://%0b] >>>> http:// af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >>>> -- AF mailing list >>>> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > >>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com <[http://%0b] >>>> http:// af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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