Town or country? -----Original Message----- From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Chuck Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2025 4:32 PM To: af@af.afmug.com Cc: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD
All of the large builds like Google fiber are 100% microtrenching. One of my customers had a crew build 11,505’ in one shift last week. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2025, at 3:1 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> wrote: > > But I can't imagine it's incredibly useful in most places. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@go-mtc.com> > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 4:45:29 PM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > > > Microtrenching is much faster and cheaper than HDD. > > > > > > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 12:57 PM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > > $15-20/splice was normal in the past. Volume went way up, and the contractors > are in high demand. An NY specific issue that compounded the problem was a > new rule that you have to pay prevailing wage anytime you're doing work in a > ROW where a permit was required. That drove up even the non-PW work because > they'd rather do the PW work and there's enough volume that they can be > choosy about it. > > > > > > Check out the numbers below from a contractor. This chart makes me want to > buy a splice truck and quit this whole "engineer" thing. If you want to send > a crew to NY we'll put them to work and they'll get rates like these all day > long. > > > > > > > > > > > PW > > > > > Non PW > > > per location > > > ct Splice Loc > > > Rate > > > ct Splice Loc > > > Rate > > > OFDC/ Wall Panel > > > 0 > > > $72.00 > > > 0 > > > $45.00 > > > 450B > > > 0 > > > $60.00 > > > 0 > > > $37.50 > > > 450D > > > 0 > > > $52.00 > > > 0 > > > $32.50 > > > 600D > > > 0 > > > $48.00 > > > 0 > > > $30.00 > > > > > > > > > Underground is a separate nightmare. We do it for make-ready avoidance or in > neighborhoods without existing aerial. Almost everything needs HDD, and the > per foot rates would make your eyes water. Or maybe make your mouth water if > you have a crew that will travel to NY for work. > > > > > > We do have internal crews, and they are absolutely less costly than the > contractors, but scaling requires more hands. We also need to be able to ramp > up and down, and it's bad optics to hire a bunch of people for construction > work and then have to lay them off when the projects are finished and you're > waiting to get your next build areas approved by the board. > > > > > > This is the much-vaunted efficiency of corporations. The secret is they're > not efficient at all -they just have lots of capital to make things happen. > Where your ROI is 10% theirs might be 5%, but 5% of $100 billion is more than > 10% of whatever you have. > > > > > > -Adam > > > > > > > > > > From: AF on behalf of Chuck McCown > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 2:07 PM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > > I learned my lesson on make ready years ago, so I am 100% underground now. > And frankly, I only splice what I need on the large count cables. We splice > them ourselves so not much cost there. I have never seen $41/burn before. > Most of the time when we were burning for money we were happy to get $16. > BTW, I hate splicing ribbon. Seems almost impossible to get 12 perfect > splices. > > > > > From: AF [ mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 11:59 AM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < af@af.afmug.com > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > Yeah, city and county permits aren't usually bad. People mean different > things when they say "permit", though. The elco technically is licensing us > to make an attachment to a pole, but people often call it a "pole permit". We > have to complete all the make ready before we're licensed to attach and make > ready is usually the killer. Pole attachment application fees have been north > of $150/pole in NY since about 2015 when the Elco's outsourced the > engineering work. NYDOT permits need engineer stamped drawings, and the > details they require are time consuming. RR crossings can be ridiculous. > Overall, the cable and placement of the cable makes up about 1/3 of the cost. > So we do spend twice as much on all the crap it takes to get there. > > > > In that light it's very tempting to say that placing a 288 vs a 96 isn't that > big of a deal, but it does start to look like a big deal once you add > everything up. Contractors charge per splice. Butt splicing a 288 is like > $12,000....more if it's prevailing wage. Your reel length is constrained by > the size and weight of reel that your equipment can handle. Corning ALTOS > 288F weighs twice as much as their 96F, so your doing 3x the splices twice as > often for ultimately 6x the splicing cost. It also means bigger closures > everywhere you're tapping into that cable. It does all add up. > > > > -Adam > > > > > > > > > > From: AF on behalf of Chuck McCown > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2025 11:29 AM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > > > I have not found permitting, engineering or fees to be all the expensive as > long as you are not dealing with federal lands. Most cities are very > reasonable. > > -----Original Message----- > From: AF [ mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mark > Radabaugh > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2025 5:54 PM > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BEAD > > The extra fiber needed to do AE isn’t a big deal when you are building > centralized split architecture in mid to dense population areas, but it > becomes pretty cost prohibitive quickly in low density and with NG2-PON on > the horizon with the capability of delivering 10G/10G over a 40G capacity PON > I don’t see much need for AE anytime soon. > > Why is is so expensive? Fiber isn’t expensive - it’s the permitting, > engineering, fees to every government entity, paperwork, etc. that you have > to pay. > > Mark > >> On Mar 21, 2025, at 4:49 PM, dbernardi < dberna...@zitomedia.net > wrote: >> >> >> >> But the expensive/important part (fiber) is in place. If the gubment is >> going to piss away tax dollars for unserved/underserved broadband, fiber >> construction seems like a decent urinal. >> >> XGS-PON can co-exist with GPON on the same fiber so eventual upgrades are >> fairly easy. Do combo GPON/XGS-PON at the OLT out of the gate so a CPE swap >> is the only thing require for an upgrade to a shared 10Gb service. When >> XGS-PON isn't enough bandwidth for the 32 subscribers on a PON, I'd rather >> replace equipment at either end than deal with another construction project. >> Or do a 1:16 split. >> >> Preparing for AE when doing the construction is probably worthwhile too even >> if you only light for PON initially, or mix/match. The cost of deploying >> high count fiber cable isn't that significant in the big picture. >> >> And why does fiber construction have to be so (artificially?) expensive. Buy >> America will certainly make broadband deployments more expensive but that's >> a good thing if it truly provides jobs and manufacturing investment, but I >> have my doubts. >> >> >> >>> On 3/21/2025 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: >>> Is GPON good enough? That can only do gigabit and each port is 2.5G. Should >>> these projects require NGPON? Or maybe every location should have AE so >>> they can do 100G to start with. >>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 2:01 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com < >>>> mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >> wrote: >>> Because in X years they won't be. With fiber they will be upon the >>> same Infrastructure. >>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025, 10:59 AM Josh Luthman >>> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com < mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com >> >>> wrote: >>> But people that currently have fixed wireless of 100x20 are >>> sufficiently served? How does that make any sense? >>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 11:44 AM Steve Jones >>> <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com < mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >> >>> wrote: >>> they should not allow fixed wireless, they never should have allowed >>> technology with a short shelf life On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 9:17 AM >>> Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com < mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com >> >>> wrote: >>> Well.... >>> https://bsky.app/profile/craigsilverman.bsky.social/ >>> post/3lkiye5n2dk2p < https://bsky.app/profile/ >>> craigsilverman.bsky.social/post/3lkiye5n2dk2p> >>> https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/seq3uoU1L5 >>> < https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/seq3uoU1L5 > The director of >>> BEAD quit. He says the previous rules interpreted the bill to mean >>> that only FTTH would meet the performance and future-proofing >>> requirements. He is claiming that there are proposed rule changes >>> that will allow Starlink but not allow fixed wireless. I don't know >>> whether the changes /intentionally/ benefit Starlink, but this guy >>> is crying foul and felt strongly enough about it to resign over it. >>> -Adam >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> *From:* AF on behalf of Ken Hohhof >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 12:19 AM >>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' >>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] BEAD >>> I’m surprised BEAD hasn’t run into problems because the E stands for >>> Equity and DEI is now banned. >>> But if they eliminate the E, would it just be BAD? >>> -- AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> < http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >>> -- AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> < http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > >>> -- AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com <[http://%0b] >>> http:// af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >>> -- AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com < mailto:AF@af.afmug.com > >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com <[http://%0b] >>> http:// af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
