"The cloud is the future"
It certainly isn't. It's largely a fad that's already has people removing the
wool from their eyes and moving on.
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darin Steffl" <darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2023 6:43:59 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
Jan,
Most of the links you shared aren't of Google being hacked, but people being
scammed/phished. Tricking a user into sharing their login info means the user
was scammed, not that google was hacked. ONE link you shared says less than 24
gmails in Iran were hacked somehow. None of your links share that google has
had a massive data breach at any time. That's not to say it can't/won't happen
but there's been no big hacks at Google as far as I can remember.
I stand by my claim that you're being paranoid. I promise you that mail.com or
hosting your own email is far less secure and more easily hacked than Google
is. Do you have thousands of engineers working to keep your data secure? That
answer is NO. I am not delusional enough to think that hosting my own Linux
server for email will be more secure than Google. There's no way I can outsmart
hackers, keep updated on hourly or daily updates and patches, etc. Nor do I
want to do that when I can outsource to a company that does it much better than
I do.
I don't host a single server for our WISP in 11 years in business and I won't
be starting today. The cloud is the future and keeps me hands off on servers
and software. If there's a problem, it's someone else's job to fix it and my
only job is to report the issue. What if I'm on vacation and I had one or more
servers that failed? Now that's my job to fix things while I'm supposed to be
off the clock. I don't need that kind of stress in my life so I refuse to host
any servers that are mission critical to my business. The only thing resembling
a server would be our Preseem appliance but we have backup OSPF routes around
it in case that fails.
Our billing system is Azotel and they have hosted it in the cloud for us since
we started 11 years ago. Total downtime in 11 years is under 1 hour. Not every
cloud service is that reliable. They handle the multiple backups and securing
of the servers too. Slack, for example, has probably had 12 hours of downtime
or subpar performance in the 5 years we've used it but it still was an issue I
didn't have to fix myself.
On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 2:31 PM Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >
wrote:
I like dmarc since you get to dictate the strictness and get reports on your
overall deliverability
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:44 PM Darin Steffl < darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
Jan,
I don't recall any hacks or data breaches to Google at all. I've seen plenty of
other platforms with breaches like t-mobile but Google is pretty secure. I
think you're acting a little paranoid in protecting your phone number. I can
pay some online service and get your home address, phone numbers, and social
security number if I wanted to. This information that you think is very secure
is almost public knowledge for a fee.
As others have said, DKIM/SPF are industry standards, not Google, and they're
pretty old at this point. DMARC is newer, to me at least, in the last several
years so not every platform gives much weight to this but DKIM and SPF is a
must nowadays for any email provider.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 4:03 PM Josh Baird < joshba...@gmail.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
DKIM/SPF/DFMARC aren't "made-up standards" from Google.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:31 PM Jan-GAMs < j.vank...@grnacres.net > wrote:
<blockquote>
I don't see how you come to the conclusion that my paid for mail service is
supposed to have recently imposed made-up standards from google that comply
only with google as some sort of long-standing standard. It's a recent standard
imposed by google. And I'm never going to willingly give google my phone number
so that when they get hacked again the hackers will have my email and my phone
number. Why don't I just broadcast on some public website my social security
number too? Yeah, tiktok or twitter, give them my phone number, ssi, home
address, all my emails along with my real name. Because when you give google
your phone number, they now have exactly who you are and access to all your
private info. How many times in the last couple years has google been hacked?
Constantly! I am not going to freely give this shit to them.
Well, I'm wrong, you're right. When I bought the phone, google forced me into
an email address as part of using the phone. I never use that email and I
refuse to login to anything using that email. Other than that I don't know how
to tell them to sit on a sharp stick and twirl.
On 3/10/23 12:02, Steve Jones wrote:
<blockquote>
if you had followed your email providers instructions, you wouldnt have created
your own problems.
spam is floating score based. bulk/public/free/spamhost email providers have
high scores to start. proper spf loweres it, lack of dkim raises it, lack of
dmarc raises it, content cn raise it, all the IPs in the mail chain can raise
it.
Thats why youre responsible for doing your part to increase your
deliverability. If you were sending a business correspondence you might go as
far as sending it certified mail, becaus eyou want deliverability. But if you
didnt go that far, you wouldnt put the correspondence in an envelope that looks
like dish network advertising because it would be discarded as junk mail, you
wouldnt put it an odd shaped envelope that can get stuck in the sorting
machines, you wouldnt put phrase like "sperm burglar" on the exterior, youd put
it in a business class envelope with windows and clearly visible address
marking, a proper return address, etc.
Weve been managing deliverability with these types of methods since before
emails. and even that changed over time.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 1:50 PM Jan-GAMs < j.vank...@grnacres.net > wrote:
<blockquote>
So, since grnacres doesn't have dkim or dmarc records, they should be getting
bounced like the mail.com records too. I don't have any control over the mail
servers. I rent the service "easymail" along with the domain name from easydns.
You know, it sounds to me more like google is a terrorist organization stamping
on the competition just because they can get away with it. They make shit up,
and terrorize those whom they want to force into compliance with their made-up
bullshit. Next they're going to be asking for money
Where is the anti-trust people when you need them?
On 3/10/23 10:55, Steve Jones wrote:
<blockquote>
grnacres.net doesnt have dkim nor a dmarc record. Thats bad domain
deliverability practice, nothing to do with the mailhost perse, but if mail.com
doesnt support dkim, its a trash mail host like sherweb. Cant blame recipient
mail servers when the root issue is the sending server isnt current. Its like
getting pissed that somebody doesnt get communications you sent out by
telegraph
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:49 PM Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >
wrote:
<blockquote>
X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:b0d9:b0:8af:3519:ea1 with SMTP id
bk25-20020a170906b0d900b008af35190ea1mr29983208ejb.57.1678462982507;
Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:43:02 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1678462982; cv=none;
d= google.com ; s=arc-20160816;
b=bJKHFyjF+9UzBXciF4y3cYBJwrgmwap9OQ3AsQpf2nOFXGkTbLP4C0qHnlLFHXPcA5
TAdqmLZYourjPpwIUaAuOjrJO9npBlDZRwv5N/S7xI4iPV2aly79cft4VRXOcfmk7CA0
n0mVQfby5GZR1DD+W1UzAdSHRUH51Nn/V7ounZGXel07tvWfVO8Oso9xga3lPfnUACNp
TcgZPJSw+qZN7TBryDh9Wu1NFoyTBlKOGbgmQ/kCB0sSolGD+JqNOny+m40Pwdqh40ZD
jfEM9U9v6Wc6ORTM1FaDpf5Lp9kw8+8gZwnpXwXqFX4mb8gxYt+hZCPJm+kDipw/lDr3
bhLA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= google.com ;
s=arc-20160816;
h=content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:content-language:to
:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id;
bh=IehNk68dy6Xm43VADrOc3Wts/VQhOY9VIh8QjaijTk8=;
b=NyqdCYZBzsrNlw9g7CPu4CfeQy64PQOMwX8TEIFWlUxO7XScd6qJ5xAmPDrypL8w2e
/h4c7ONmrtQsk65hcKCBSJxq4sztWtnPNbv9HZ2VBdC6R/JGcUovOQ5syUTVRAaGoGyg
6quG7biEF/Sud2xX/FBh1gMx50IFKJnscAlxCqvWnWzI5C01HgPhIT9hVh3Plz2YjWHQ
hgdmHROdvAdaX6uEl3nz7l4ojOhValcTQDuIakI9ydlRN2QZT12hL1OWX71MpeoGvVMA
jmEKbqXHlTu8rWPYvmL0M3Nx0V+oWCnCINPPYL1Pxu0Ob575PZS4DBo1hQE7tozljWxT
avNg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com ;
spf=pass ( google.com : domain of j.vank...@grnacres.net designates
64.68.200.34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom= j.vank...@grnacres.net
Return-Path: < j.vank...@grnacres.net >
Received: from mailout.easymail.ca ( mailout.easymail.ca . [64.68.200.34])
by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id
p5-20020a1709066a8500b008d490a104b2si49101ejr.523.2023.03.10.07.43.02
for < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:43:02 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass ( google.com : domain of j.vank...@grnacres.net designates
64.68.200.34 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.68.200.34;
Authentication-Results: mx.google.com ;
spf=pass ( google.com : domain of j.vank...@grnacres.net designates
64.68.200.34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom= j.vank...@grnacres.net
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easymail.ca
(Postfix) with ESMTP id 738E268D1A for < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >; Fri, 10
Mar 2023 15:43:01 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at emo09-pco.easydns.vpn
Received: from mailout.easymail.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost
(emo09-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id
csxoJG_y5IgL for < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 15:43:01 +0000
(UTC)
Received: from [192.168.2.100] ( 047-224-130-187.res.spectrum.com
[47.224.130.187]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128
bits)
key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest
SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easymail.ca (Postfix) with
ESMTPSA id 03E3A68C4C for < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >; Fri, 10 Mar 2023
15:43:00 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: < 7b07154d-8e71-69fc-f76a-bcfb5ec52...@grnacres.net >
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:42:59 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/102.8.0
To: thatoneguyst...@gmail.com Content-Language: en-US
From: Jan-GAMs < j.vank...@grnacres.net >
Subject: hellody
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:47 PM Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com >
wrote:
<blockquote>
nope, this gmail account is standard free account.
Im probably special cause all my communications get routed through the FBI
servers for my online antics
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:33 PM Jan-GAMs < j.vank...@grnacres.net > wrote:
<blockquote>
it was a test. Only the ones addressed to you went through. The others tested,
bounced. Your address is different somehow. You mentioned your gmail is a
paid-for account, the others that bounced were the free-gmail type accounts one
gets by logging into google. The emails were sent from mail.com and from my own
business accounts. The business ones went through and the mail.com ones bounced
except for the one sent to you. I picked 4 gmail addresses and sent them out,
all of the ones sent from the mail.com got bounced except yours. What makes you
so special?
On 3/10/23 09:14, Steve Jones wrote:
<blockquote>
i got your spam emails this morning
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:04 AM < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
Apparently nobody on gmail has noticed
From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:32 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
All mail.com users cannot send you email. How many other's are blocked as well?
Oblivion, must be sweet.
On 3/9/23 20:14, Darin Steffl wrote:
<blockquote>
Gmail is the best. Been using them for our business since 2012. Virtually no
issues at all aside from a handful of short outages over the last 11 years.
It's hands off, costs very little, and I've NEVER needed to contact them for
support. We also use Google drive and their version of office apps in the
cloud. We don't store any files locally at all. All business docs are at Google
and they're safe there and they handle the backups.
I don't see any advantage to hosting local email on your own server. It's not
worth your time. My time is worth $550/hr roughly when looking at net profit so
spending even one hour a year trying to manage or fix my own email server would
cost me more than what I pay Google.
We're grandfathered in and think we get 10 free users for gsuite and I pay to
upgrade storage to 100gb on 2-3 users so we pay less than $60 a year to Google
for everything. Dirt cheap and great peace mind.
This is relating to our internal business use. For customer email, we never
offered it and never will. Just recommend a free Gmail account and go live your
best life not having to support email.
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023, 8:47 PM Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
O365 handles SMTP relay for scanners and such really well, we just dealt with
it a bunch. authenticated IP. I dont scan to a flatbed because the Edsel was
before my time :-)
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 1:03 PM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
I prefer to have it in house for the 10-20 email addresses it serves for
employees and other business email addresses. It is free that way and we don’t
have to worry about anything else. But for some reason the server hangs and
needs to get rebooted, usually about the same time each day.
Google got difficult, especially for email chains and other things so we
stopped using them some time ago. For example, our scanner stopped being able
to send emails due to something gmail did.
From: Steve Jones
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 11:24 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
How much is your time worth. The free internal server is costing you this. We
are still using rackspace for subscriber mail and our office emails since its
same domain and a pita to set up split routing for the mail. The cost of our
mail is covered by the folks who have dropped service but wanted to keep their
email, we actually make a tidy profit to cover any administrative stuff.
for my business I use google. 6 bucks a month per user. The way I look at it is
if im not making 6 bucks per guy a month I have bigger problems than my email.
Im a nerd, 20 years ago dicking around with email servers would have been a
blast. but now its like maintaining a battery powered inverter just so i can
still use my corded drill. I can, it will work, its not that complicated, but
its nonetheless a dumb waste of time.
dealing with hosting email servers is a total waste of any resources unless
your monetizing it. too large an attack vector
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 10:18 AM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
It is only for our own company email. No customers on it.
From: Tyson Burris
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 7:37 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
Surgemail is exactly what I used. Seemed to be a good product.
Tyson Burris, President
Internet Communications Inc.
739 Commerce Dr.
Franklin, IN 46131
Office # 317-738-0320
Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540
Online: www.surfici.net
ICI
What can ICI do for you?
Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP Cameras -
Fiber - Towers - Infrastructure.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the
addressee shown. It contains information that is
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,
dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by
unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly
prohibited.
From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Steven Kenney via AF
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 8:37 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com >
Cc: Steven Kenney < st...@wavedirect.org >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
Surgemail you could run 1000 customers on a raspberry pi! Not free though.
Extremely granular configuration options.
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 7:16 AM Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
We used Icewarp since 2004 without issues. At its peak we had thousandth of
accounts on it, but now just a handful.
Not free. And they went to per user licensing so it’s not cost effective for
hosting anymore, but it’s reasonable for internal email.
Get Outlook for iOS
From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > on behalf of Chuck McCown via AF <
af@af.afmug.com >
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 6:05:45 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com < af@af.afmug.com >
Cc: Chuck McCown < ch...@go-mtc.com >
Subject: [AFMUG] mail servers
We are having trouble with mailcow. Anything better out there. It hangs all the
time these days.
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY This communication, including any attachments, is
intended only for the use of the addressee(s) to this email and is
confidential. If you are not an intended recipient or acting on behalf of an
intended recipient, any review, disclosure, conversion to hard copy,
dissemination, reproduction or other use of any part of this communication is
strictly prohibited. If you receive this communication in error or without
authorization, please notify the originator immediately and remove it from your
system.
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
</blockquote>
--
Darin Steffl
Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com
507-634-WiFi
Like us on Facebook
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
