My emails are also being censored. Why is this happening and who is doing it ?
On Tue, 9 May 2023 at 00:51, Wiki Prasad <[email protected]> wrote: > i say same thing, my email not posted. it is censored. > > > *Sent:* Monday, May 08, 2023 at 4:48 AM > *From:* "Jayantilal Kothari" <[email protected]> > *To:* "Wikimedia India Community list" < > [email protected]>, [email protected] > *Subject:* [Wikimediaindia-l] Request for Transparency Regarding WMF > Staff in India > Hello WCI 2023 Organizing team, > > First of all, thank you for hosting the event. I appreciate your > willingness to engage in discussions and provide clarifications on concerns > related to the conference. However, I would like to remind you that this > email thread is specifically addressed to the Wikimedia Foundation and > Maryana Iskander. > > I am curious if the Maryana/WMF has requested your team or given > authorization for you to justify or defend their actions in this matter. As > this thread focuses on WMF's actions and decisions in relation to the > Indian community, it is crucial to maintain separate discussions for > separate issues to ensure productive and organized conversations. I kindly > request that you start a separate email thread or Meta-Wiki discussion for > addressing concerns related to the conference itself. > > Let's give the WMF the opportunity to address the concerns raised here > directly. Thank you for your understanding, and once again, congratulations > on organizing a successful event. > > > On Sun, 7 May 2023 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Kolbe <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear Bodhisattwa, >> >> Thank you for your reply. >> >> While Wiki[p/m]edia started out as a pure volunteer project, it has long >> occupied a sometimes uneasy position between some of the biggest and most >> valuable companies on earth, who use our free content to make money, and >> volunteers working for love. This makes culture clashes of some sort or >> another inevitable. I don't have a solution. >> >> I also suspect that you have a point with the "white guilt". What this >> means, of course, is that people are still not "seen". >> >> If you ever feel like writing an op-ed or report about these matters for >> the Wikipedia Signpost >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost>, please >> feel free to send me a mail or just drop into our Newsroom >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom>. >> The Signpost hardly ever has content about India, let alone content written >> by Indian contributors. (The issue due to be published in a few hours' time >> is a rare exception.) It would be great to see that change. >> >> Best, >> Andreas >> (User:Jayen466) >> >> On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 6:55 PM Bodhisattwa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Andreas, >>> >>> There is no denial that money is needed in our region to run programs >>> but there should always be a critical debate, if we are asking too much >>> amount and for the right cause. I can't talk about others but I come from a >>> cross-border language community which has always shown high regards to the >>> value of donation money and expressed concerns in the past, whenever it has >>> felt that money asked in a grant proposal is out of proportionate. So, >>> whenever a grant proposal comes from my language community or from the two >>> affiliates of the region, we brainstorm for days, if not months, to >>> understand if there remains any small chance to waste the valuable >>> resources which are to be entrusted upon us. For example, questions >>> naturally arises in our community that if we really need to or have the >>> luxury to spend this huge amount of around 10 million INR just for a 3-days >>> conference to meet and greet each other after a long time or could that >>> amount of money be invested on local affiliates and communities so that >>> they can sustain themselves and provide quality output for the next decade. >>> There has always been this debate and the people who talked about the >>> second option are quietly moving away from the movement as they were not >>> heard properly or were targeted for their critical analysis. We strongly >>> feel that throwing unnecessary amount of money to whatever proposal comes >>> over from the region is detrimental to the community dynamics as these >>> money spoils people in the communities, brings more mistrusts and >>> corruption and changes the motivation to contribute to the open knowledge >>> movement. Also, huge amount of money does not necessarily translate to >>> delivery of high quality output all the time, good results can come from >>> limited resources too, even with zero budget, if they are planned properly; >>> there are numerous success stories in our movement of those, which are >>> rarely acknowledged or celebrated. >>> >>> What we feel that there might be some 'white guilt' working in the >>> background to reverse colonial sins from the past in the regions which >>> might drive people from the west to approve more money in Africa and Asia >>> without consideration of local inputs. Any voices against these western >>> perspectives to flood local communities with huge amount of unnecessary >>> money are marked as counter-productive, ignored, silenced and bypassed with >>> different regulatory measures imposed upon the community until people stop >>> criticising and get fed up of being ignored. For example, personally, I >>> have developed apathy nowadays regarding whatever is happening around grant >>> process western to our state border of West Bengal until they directly >>> affects us and prefer to remain silent during their community review >>> process. >>> >>> By the way, I have no objection hiring WMF staffs from the region. In >>> fact, a number of staffs and contractors from the region are and were >>> highly respected for their support and understanding of the local >>> communities. But all are not beds of roses. There are multiple evidences of >>> opacities, ignorance, agenda pushing, bossing around, corporate mentality, >>> hijacking of community plans and projects etc. among staffs, which builds >>> walls of mistrusts separating them with the volunteers rather than breaking >>> them. I can't disagree to what Jayantilal implied in his statement. So, to >>> me, staffs are always welcome, but if they have no intention to listen and >>> support for community needs, then we frankly don't need them around our >>> communities to push their own agenda, we can manage ourselves. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Bodhisattwa >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 4, 2023, 18:30 Andreas Kolbe <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Bodhisattwa and all, >>>> >>>> You raise an interesting point – that the influx of money appears to >>>> have a demotivating effect on Indian volunteers. This has also come up in >>>> discussion elsewhere. >>>> >>>> Now I have been one of those who have urged the WMF to spend more money >>>> in India. I have always felt that actual spending on the ground has not >>>> matched the Foundation's fundraising messages about how money is urgently >>>> needed to build capacity in Indian and African languages. And I have argued >>>> that hiring staff in India, e.g., makes more sense than hiring staff in the >>>> US, where salary expectations may run to hundreds of thousands of dollars >>>> per year. >>>> >>>> How would you resolve these competing considerations? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Andreas (Jayen466) >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 3:21 AM Bodhisattwa <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Coincidentally, just yesterday afternoon, when we were having a >>>>> meeting in Kolkata with volunteers from West Bengal and Bangladesh, these >>>>> concerns came up among other things. We were wondering about the visible >>>>> impact of the increasing number of WMF staffs in India to improve our >>>>> editing and reading experiences, significant partnership development or >>>>> strengthening the communities in the last few years and if they have any >>>>> impact at all in our language community to make our life easier as >>>>> volunteers. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, if the volunteer communities or team of organizers are not >>>>> strong and vigilant enough, there is always a chance to get something >>>>> hijacked by staffs. This is not new; it has happened before a number of >>>>> times and it will happen a lot more in the future. This could not be >>>>> avoided as I feel the spirit of volunteerism in the Indian communities is >>>>> much much weaker than the past and dying, if not already dead in some of >>>>> the cases. In the last few years, I have seen long term trusted community >>>>> members from all over the country leave the movement frustrated, heart >>>>> broken and exhausted, including from my language community. Increasing >>>>> flow >>>>> of unnecessary money are rapidly changing the motivation of volunteers >>>>> with >>>>> a strange notion prevailing nowadays that money is the solution of all >>>>> problems in the region. Community oversight and long discussions on meta >>>>> talk pages about any huge amount of grant proposals are now a thing of the >>>>> past. But who cares? >>>>> >>>>> Unlike the previous wiki conferences, the wider Indian community did >>>>> not get the invitation and space to actively take part in the decision >>>>> making process from the very start of planning this conference which led >>>>> to >>>>> giving room to WMF staffs, who took over. Without community vigilance, a 3 >>>>> days conference asked and spent 3 times more donation money than the last >>>>> one and has set up precedences of many unwanted things which would burden >>>>> future community programs and events in India. It's not at all surprising >>>>> that even though no one was stopped, but a very few number of volunteers >>>>> from my language community actually applied and participated in the >>>>> conference, even being one of the most active community in the region. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Bodhisattwa >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2023, 00:53 Subhashish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I find this email better worded than the other one in this list a few >>>>>> days back which was also about different issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some of these issues, though I'm not personally aware of, certainly >>>>>> need to be addressed by WMF. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for upholding the importance of the community by saying -- >>>>>> "I am okay with WMF staff being paid, but it should not undermine unpaid >>>>>> volunteers and the movement's ethos." Can't agree more. >>>>>> >>>>>> While I see public listing of WMF staff and contractors both on-wiki >>>>>> [1] and the Foundation's official site, WMF staff in India might mean >>>>>> staff >>>>>> and contractors who are hired both for long-term and short-term and >>>>>> part-time roles. It could also mean those who play global roles (say, >>>>>> engineering staffers) but reside in India and don't necessarily interface >>>>>> only with the India-based community. Their participation in a national >>>>>> level event could be an one-off thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> But those nuances apart, the volunteer and staff dynamics certainly >>>>>> is a topic worth discussing. >>>>>> >>>>>> A worse social phenomenon in India is a foreigner being treated with >>>>>> more dignity than a local. The intersectionality of caste, gender, >>>>>> fluency >>>>>> in English, intergenerational privilege and many other social factors >>>>>> play >>>>>> a role. I still think this is not a standalone issue and should be >>>>>> discussed (and investigated if needed) keeping in mind the >>>>>> intersectionality. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimedia_Foundation_staff >>>>>> >>>>>> Subha >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 3, 2023, 11:09 PM Jayantilal Kothari < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Maryana Iskander and Wikimedia Foundation, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to request more >>>>>>> transparency about the roles and responsibilities of WMF staff in >>>>>>> India. I >>>>>>> am assuming good faith and believe that any issues arising are >>>>>>> unintentional; however, these occurrences seem to be negatively >>>>>>> impacting >>>>>>> the overall movement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It has come to my attention that WMF allocates a relatively small >>>>>>> amount of funds to the Indian community. This implies that a significant >>>>>>> portion of donor money is spent on staff, making it crucial to ensure >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> donors and the Wiki community are aware of how the funds are being >>>>>>> utilized >>>>>>> and the impact generated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Firstly, I have noticed that WMF hires non-community staff members >>>>>>> who may be initially unfamiliar with the Wikimedia community and >>>>>>> movement >>>>>>> in general. This is not an issue as long as newly recruited staff >>>>>>> members >>>>>>> are willing to work collaboratively with the community, rather than >>>>>>> competing with them. Unfortunately, there have been instances where this >>>>>>> has not been the case, such as WMF India staff paying Instagram users >>>>>>> without consulting the community, and the recent WikiConference India, >>>>>>> where WMF staff overshadowed volunteer committees and took over >>>>>>> volunteer >>>>>>> roles during conference planning. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Initially, I thought that privacy concerns might be the reason >>>>>>> behind the lack of transparency. However, during the recent conference, >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> observed that such staff members were comfortable being on stage and >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> identified as WMF Staff amongst friends from the industry whom they >>>>>>> invited >>>>>>> to the conference. It appears that more people from the industry are >>>>>>> aware >>>>>>> of WMF India staff's existence than the community itself. Some staff >>>>>>> members were keen to take credit for the entire movement and even >>>>>>> conference planning in front of the volunteer community and friends from >>>>>>> the industry. It might help and advance the careers of WMF India staff >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> showcasing WikiConference India on their resumes, but the main purpose >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> such community events is to give a chance to community leadership and to >>>>>>> celebrate unpaid community members. I am okay with WMF staff being paid, >>>>>>> but it should not undermine unpaid volunteers and the movement's ethos. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Wiki community looks up to WMF staff for support, but now there >>>>>>> is a fear that WMF staff may hijack community programs and stages, with >>>>>>> WikiConference India being a recent example. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There seems to be a lot of mystery surrounding the roles and >>>>>>> responsibilities of WMF India staff members and their interactions with >>>>>>> volunteer communities. The Wiki community is dedicated to the mission >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> will continue to thrive even without WMF staff. I believe it is crucial >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> WMF to publicly share the roles, responsibilities, and outcomes of the >>>>>>> WMF >>>>>>> India staff over the last few years. This transparency will enable >>>>>>> community members and donors to appreciate the efforts of WMF India >>>>>>> staff, >>>>>>> as currently, the impact of their work remains unknown. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I kindly request that WMF provides a list of all WMF India staff >>>>>>> members and their achievements, so we can celebrate their >>>>>>> accomplishments >>>>>>> and collaborate with them more effectively. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Looking forward to your response. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With Regards, >>>>>>> Jayantilal >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jayantilal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>> [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ > > -- > Regards, > > Jayantilal > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing > list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email > to [email protected] To unsubscribe from the > list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimediaindia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
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