Scope is a Commons community decision, OTRS is solely about licensing On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 15:30, Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hoi, > No it is an administrative process. It follows its own rules IN ORDER TO do > what it does. The notion that material is to be useful to Wikipedia is NOT > covered by any legal restraints. This notion that is alive and well, the > notion that copyright can be retroactively applied never mind the original > copyright holder is that as well. > > Yes, the underlying work is legal, the process is definitely not and > consequently the process has to be revisited, is to be revisited in order > for OTRS to function for all of us. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 08:09, Gnangarra <[email protected]> wrote: > > > to quote Gerard > > > > There is no law that insists on the existing rules and regulations as put > > > forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly unfit > > > > for purpose. > > > > > > OTRS is very much a legal process because its related to Copyright laws, > > both in the US and in the country in which they reside. Every > > transaction(image upload) is a person giving away their rights in regards > > to that work OTRS needs to ensure that the person is fully aware of the > > consequences of that action. OTRS holds an absolute record of that > action > > of when it took place, it protects all parties should there be an issue > in > > the future in particular the WMF and our volunteers who were involved in > > the process. > > > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 13:57, Gerard Meijssen <[email protected] > > > > wrote: > > > > > Hoi, > > > Thank you for demonstrating the extend OTRS is not fit for purpose. I > > > understand that OTRS is governed by rules and regulations but a > reference > > > is made to "legal". There is no law that insists on the existing rules > > and > > > regulations as put forward, rules and regulations that are blatantly > > unfit > > > for purpose. > > > > > > Particularly the line: "- it must not say the use is to, for, or on > > > Wikipedia" is problematic because either this is a list as stated what > > OTRS > > > adheres to or, it is not. It is a negative and as such it reads that it > > is > > > NOT about any Wikipedia and its vagaries. > > > > > > Yet again it is brought to the attention that the negative attitude is > to > > > be acceptable because of a perceived workload. Apparently it is easier > to > > > say no than to say yes and that is in itself mystifying. > > > > > > OTRS has not moved on with the time and as such it does not even know > > > selfies... An issue not confined to OTRS is that understanding of > > copyright > > > and licensing is dim anyway. When a copyright holder provides us with > > > material, it is licensed by the copyright holder to be available under > a > > > WMF permitted license. When the copyright holder provides it under a > > > secondary license elsewhere or when our material is used elsewhere > with a > > > more restrictive license, it does not follow that we are in breach of > > > copyright. I have fought such "delete on sight" battles and the only > > result > > > is no response on the image that was to be speedily deleted. The rule > > > should be; when material is provided to us, the license is checked at > the > > > time and any and all issues NOT involving the copyright holder are to > be > > > seen as irrelevant. > > > > > > OTRS is a Wikimedia Foundation sanctioned function. It insists to > > function > > > as is and therefore *a new mandate is required* because as is, it does > > the > > > worst possible service. There is no Wikipedia, there are 300+, there > are > > > other projects that require a functioning Commons and as it is, it is > not > > > fit for purpose. > > > > > > You may remember when English Wikipedia had egg on its face because of > > the > > > deletion of what became a Nobel prize winner. There are MANY science > > awards > > > and we want a picture for all awardees in addition, in the Scholia tool > > we > > > want pictures of any and all people that authored a paper. > > > Thanks, > > > GerardM > > > > > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 02:06, Gnangarra <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > For legal reasons OTRS requires very specific wording, it declines > > > > permissions that fail to meet that very strict wording. > > > > > > > > The person must; > > > > > > > > - establish their authority to license the image > > > > - the license must be a free license PD or CC-by > > > > - it must not say the use is to, for, or on Wikipedia > > > > - it needs a URL to associate the permission with > > > > > > > > If the media meets these requirements than it will be accept, if it > > > doesnt > > > > it gets rejected. Scope is something that gets decided on on Commons. > > > > > > > > Wikidata has had an impact on scope, quite literally everything is > now > > > > within scope. We havent even yet got to the issue about Wikidata > items > > > > including trademarked logos and copyrighted works for which Commons > > cant > > > > have images under fairuse > > > > > > > > Commons has fallen behind when it comes to the capability of taking > > > photos > > > > of ones self (selfies) the default position when Commons started was > > that > > > > taking a high quality photograph of yourself wasnt possible there > must > > > have > > > > been someone else pushing the button. What happens is Commons asks > for > > > the > > > > subject to obtain permission from the photographer and submit that to > > > OTRS, > > > > the systems falls over because the photographer cant prove that the > > photo > > > > they took of themselves was taken by themselves because the > underlying > > > > assumption is that that isnt possible. The vast majority of agents > on > > > the > > > > commons permission queue are people from commons who have learnt the > > > > policies and have the tools to do the work. > > > > > > > > OTRS permission behaves as expected because there is a very narrow > > > > definition of whats acceptable, anything that doesnt fit gets > rejected. > > > The > > > > very real need to be pro-active in ensuring the permissions queue > > doesnt > > > > get overwhelmed and backlogged contributes to the fact that the grey > > is > > > > treated as black -- close it, delete it, move on. > > > > > > > > In an ideal scenario a closer relationship with google via flickr to > > make > > > > it possible for Wikidata to link in there as well would be a > potential > > > > solution to those areas where copyright is an issue as it would > still > > > > enable the ability of having an image accessible via a link. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 05:00, Michael Maggs <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > This has nothing to do with Commons only supporting Wikipedia. > > Commons > > > > > supports ALL of the Wikimedia projects, and always has. > > > > > > > > > > As is quite clearly set out in the Commons SCOPE policy, “a file > that > > > is > > > > > used in good faith on a Wikimedia project is always considered > > > > > educational”, and hence is in scope. Of course, that includes > > Wikidata. > > > > > > > > > > Under the same policy, Commons does not editorialise on behalf of > any > > > of > > > > > the projects, and an image that is acceptable to Wikidata is by > > design > > > > > acceptable to Commons. > > > > > > > > > > If the Wikidata community considers that an item on an individual > is > > > not > > > > > acceptable (for example because it has been added solely for > > > > > self-promotion), Wikidata can - under its own rules - delete it, > and > > > > hence > > > > > the link to the image on Commons. > > > > > > > > > > Commons would then delete the image as not in use (and not > otherwise > > > > > educational). > > > > > > > > > > None of this relies in any way on the specific definition of > > ‘notable’ > > > as > > > > > used on the Wikipedias; that’s simply not relevant. > > > > > > > > > > The problem here seems to be an additional hurdle that has > apparently > > > > been > > > > > added to the guidance given to OTRS volunteers. OTRS has so far > as I > > > > know > > > > > no mandate to decline images that fall within Commons Scope, and if > > > they > > > > > are indeed doing that, the guidance should be changed. > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 Feb 2020, at 16:11, Gerard Meijssen < > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hoi, > > > > > > Apparantly at Commons they have standardised themselves to only > > > support > > > > > > Wikipedia. > > > > > > > > > > > > At Wikidata we have people who are notable according to our > > > standards. > > > > We > > > > > > are actively asking them for images to illustrate our > information. > > > The > > > > > best > > > > > > suggestion we get is: do not ask for images because they are > > deleted > > > at > > > > > > Commons. > > > > > > > > > > > > When this is what awaits us when we standardise on one label > > > Wikipedia, > > > > > it > > > > > > is obvious that this is the worst scenario for the "other" > > projects. > > > > The > > > > > > projects who operate to different standards who have notability > > > > criteria > > > > > > different from English Wikipedia. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > GerardM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > GN. > > > > > > > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > > > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > > > Wikimania Bangkok 2020 > > > > August 5 to 9 > > > > hosted by ESEAP > > > > > > > > Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > -- > > GN. > > > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > Wikimania Bangkok 2020 > > August 5 to 9 > > hosted by ESEAP > > > > Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> -- GN. *Power of Diverse Collaboration* *Sharing knowledge brings people together* Wikimania Bangkok 2020 August 5 to 9 hosted by ESEAP Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 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