We have dozens of cross project brainstorming off-wiki. But the general
feeling is often that if you encourage the social dynamics of a platform in a
way that people who like to "play cops" are a key actor... when this is
established there is no point in creating sophisticated or efficient tools,
because as long as they force such people to work in a different way they will
kinda oppose them.
For example, many time I find a deleted file I could spot dozens of similar in
the very same category and the few times I have asked the user who deleted it
or ask the deletion, I could feel he had no real interested in completing the
job. The fight for copyright is not a goal, it's a just a mean for him. He
probably has fun cherry-picking one random file, with no consistent approach.
So how many times for example I found files from the USA where there is no FOP
for statues deleted maybe if uploaded by the European users but not by the
American ones. Because of course if you did delete them all (as you should),
enwikipedia community will notice and it will be a bigger deal.. it's a problem
when all images of a monument disappear, right? So let's delete some random
files, and vanish when somebody point out the other ones, just to repeat the
same pattern somewhere else after a while. That's why it's so easy to find en-N
users from the USA who have limited clue with rule of FOP. Now, the users who
perform this type of deletion pattern will dislike any tools or preference who
simply encourage to do it in a consistent way... they are expert and they know
how categories work, if they don't complete the job is probably because they
don't want to. If we get close to the issue, we manage to get around some "the
newbes will misuse it" or "its a delicate matter", I guess the "good faith "
clause will appear.
So, we keep a random patrolling and retropatrolling on this issue, which means
poor overall copyright literacy, angry users because of the procedural
incoherence and in the end a huge backlog (since the bulk of the files remain
there). Take this dynamics, in other fields, with different nuances, multiplied
by a dozens of different legal and workload scenarios and voilà. You have one
of the reason of our current situation.
I guess there is no tool which can fix that, it's just the way a community
really wants to be. Tools can help to encourage people to think differently of
course, but I fear that would be a strong resistance.
A. M:
Il lunedì 13 maggio 2019, 16:56:49 CEST, Samuel Klein <[email protected]>
ha scritto:
Ditto. But did not have the impression that this was {a, the} pressing
need.
Perhaps we also need better ways to highlight workload overloads (and
continue conversations about them through time, rather than sporadic
proposals of specific implementations that can easily fail) to stimulate
cross-project brainstorming to solve the most pressing problems of scale
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 6:02 AM James Heilman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have a fairly good understanding of copyright. Deal with a fair bit of
> copyright issues occurring via paid editing and flicker washing of images
> and would be happy to do admin work around that if the Commons community
> was interested.
>
> James
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 4:00 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Wikimedia project communities in general seem to be quite stagnant, if
> not
> > declining, apart from Wikidata, which is and always will be a whole
> > different case. In the case of Commons it was already very much as it is
> > now when I joined in 2009. I always found it a very pleasant place, but
> > overtime I understood I was the exception there, and most people had bad
> > experiences. And it is as Yann has shown there, it's a few sysops running
> > the entire show almost alone, not because they want that, but because
> > nobody else helps with that.
> >
> > IMO the problem is not with the existing sysops, but because people in
> > general do not feel attracted to copyright and other similar minucious
> > stuff which marks everyday life in Commons. And, without that knowledge
> it
> > is pointless, if not counterproductive, to place a candidacy to sysop. No
> > idea what the solution could be, but it certainly is not blaming Commons
> > and the existing sysops. If more people was interested in copyright, less
> > mistakes would be happening in Commons as well. Whatever the solution is,
> > it probably passes by that.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> > Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <[email protected]> escreveu no dia
> segunda,
> > 13/05/2019 à(s) 07:09:
> >
> > > A good question to ask would be why the admin group is not growing. And
> > > maybe (maybe) we can find a common answer to both problems pointed
> here.
> > > _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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