If humour offend people then the problem is not with people feeling offended.
Humour is often based on common understanding and common background between the person making a joke. I can joke with really good friend making irony and derision about things that are in my values, they know it and will get the irony. I should not do that to a wider audience (they won't get it, and I have lot of chances to offend people). We may err sometimes and still offend people by making something we think is humour, when told I see no other good path than presenting excuses. I'm seriously disappointed to see such piece published in the Wikipedia SignPost. Le mer. 6 mars 2019 à 09:53, Fæ <[email protected]> a écrit : > It is an old story, artists and authors using humour and parody that > they genuinely believed was an observation, not an attack on anyone. > That a comedian or an author had good intentions, or the trope that > complainers "need to get a sense of humour", does not stop us knowing > that the promotion of stereotypes or other marginalization of a > minority, causes actual harm, real distress, and for the targeted > group there are long term consequences that come from having less self > worth. > > Peter, history is against you and it always has been. It does not take > long browsing Wikipedia to understand why we all need to stand up and > callout thoughtless jokes and bad stereotypes, rather than being > intimidated by free speech fallacious arguments that claim "it is your > fault for looking at it". I suggest reflecting over how blackface > minstrelsy was defended as harmless and hilarious fun that persisted > for well over a hundred years, or in this century how parodies about > trans people that were considered harmless twenty years ago, are > correctly called abusive now.[1][2] I'm not even going to touch what > we can learn from "parody" in the 1930s. > > Good faith is superduper, we should avoid presuming bad intentions, > especially if a first mistake that will not be repeated. This does not > stop us Wikipedians having a shared duty to ensure that through our > website we are not complicit in creating bad outcomes. Seriously who > disagrees with that, and if this is what you mean by "political > purposes to push an agenda", sure please join us and sign up to our > open knowledge agenda. > > Comedian Kumail Nanjiani, "Comedians making transphobic jokes: What > side do you wanna be on?" > > Links > 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show > 2. > https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12115577 > > Fae > -- > [email protected] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 07:26, Peter Southwood > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Natasha, > > I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this > humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion > that they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. > Accusing a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender > identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that > that was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining > a joke, seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to > push an agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not > used by reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but > that is what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and > they are even worse. > > As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by > all means. > > The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", > and are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to > assume that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true > because they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is > irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because > they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not > feel personally targeted too, but I don’t know what their reasoning is. > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l > > Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12 > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ > "humour" > > > > Hi Peter, > > > > Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some > people (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence > the reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about > jokes on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be > used to express it might just seem superfluous and look like an > overreaction, but it does echo a deep suffering which takes place after > being joked about virtually everywhere and not being able to express > opinion when on the otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such > jokes. Advocates of freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions. > > Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol > affair, and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1). > > > > Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they > systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ people, > minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same > group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are > disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to > problematic behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express > freely what they feel about these jokes. > > I have a request : can we have the conversation freely? > > This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the > remarkable work done by people like you. > > Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are > needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and > maybe not in humour tone. > > To finish I want to thank Barbara from the bottom of my heart for > showing willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this > is soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for > speaking out. > > If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact > the conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have > gained in freedom of speech. > > > > Good afternoon, > > > > Nattes à chat > > > > (1) > https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <[email protected]> > a écrit : > > > > > > "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout." > > > Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia. > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Michel Vuijlsteke > > > Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49 > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ > "humour" > > > > > > I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a > good > > > idea. > > > > > > The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as > some > > > sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses. > > > > > > M. > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a > > >> final time. How embarrassing! > > >> > > >> **** > > >> > > >> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more > > >> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication > > >> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the > > >> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be > > >> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word > > >> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was > > >> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my > > >> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather > > >> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the > > >> choice to publish it on Wikipedia. > > >> > > >> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought > > >> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was > > >> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding > > >> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my > > >> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to > > >> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed. > > >> > > >> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been > > >> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here. > > >> :-) > > >> > > >> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise > > >> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about > > >> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke > > >> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the > > >> article could be read, was raised by others before publication. > > >> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had > > >> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were > > >> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem > > >> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a > > >> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared > > >> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0] > > >> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody > > >> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes. > > >> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement. > > >> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related > > >> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being > > >> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the > > >> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority > > >> group.Thanks, > > >> > > >> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the > > >> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate > > >> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved. > > >> > > >> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct > > >> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard > > >> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires > > >> compliance with the Code of Conduct. > > >> > > >> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education > > >> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the > > >> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education, > > >> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal > > >> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone > > >> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have > > >> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of > > >> Wikimedia projects. > > >> > > >> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her > > >> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of > > >> the coauthors. > > >> > > >> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from > > >> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to > > >> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and > > >> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed > > >> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, > there > > >> are > > >> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe", > > >> it is unclear who is doing this.[4] > > >> > > >> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the > > >> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of > > >> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019 > > >> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF > > >> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other > > >> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal > > >> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I > > >> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture > > >> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other > > >> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on > > >> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or > > >> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost. > > >> > > >> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support > > >> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the > > >> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in > > >> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet. > > >> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read > > >> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love > > >> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge > > >> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and > > >> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers. > > >> > > >> Links > > >> 0. > > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour > > >> 1. > > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723 > > >> 2. https://enThanks,. > > >> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28 > > >> 3. > > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822 > > >> 4. > > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573 > > >> 5. > > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28 > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Fae > > >> -- > > >> [email protected] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > > >> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> -- Pierre-Selim _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
