I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more.
It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing.
It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump
starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better
culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to make
it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : tolerance,
understanding, love.
That would the best answer we could make.
Thanks
PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that
week-end I couldn't restrain myself
Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" <[email protected]> a
écrit :
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]
a écrit :
Hoi,
Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who
beliefs
on one pile.
I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the
problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally
on
the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being
violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of
how
faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the
claims
are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off
the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated
and
unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and
second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and
bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as
far
as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I
didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely
dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam,
whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however
disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of
Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct
questions.
Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is that
they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an
excuse
to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make
mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the
problem
at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points.
I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this
doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded
religion
and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that
said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths,
specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the imposition
of
Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon
by big fractions of Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the
subject of this thread.
Regards
[1]:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf
Thanks,
GerardM
On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David <[email protected]>
wrote:
<sarcasm>
Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims,
Christians,
etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something
horrible
in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has
nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some
other
historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be
linking
bad guys with good guys.
</sarcasm>
But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg <[email protected]>
a
écrit :
On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra <[email protected]>
wrote:
Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are
not
about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a
reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its
unfortunately
its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS.
Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores
all
our
other communities who have over the last week, months. year or
longer
have
been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care
when we
adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of
association
immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia
Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with
Islam.
The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being
neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are
being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a
worldwide perspective.
However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not
because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because
some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the
world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better
protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.
I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a
measured
way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Gallery
--
John Vandenberg
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