Allow me to correct myself: my last line should read "bot-generated articles ALONE won’t jump-start a community, as the Cebuano and Waray examples have shown".
Josh > Wiadomość napisana przez Josh Lim <[email protected]> w dniu 7 lip > 2015, o godz. 10:01: > > Hi Anders, > > While I would normally agree with your logic, take note that for both the > Cebuano and Waray Wikipedias, there were only 1-2 editors who said "yes" to > the endeavor. For Waray, that was JinJian. For Cebuano, that happened to > also be JinJian and one other editor who is currently not active. > > I think Sverker meant well when he proposed (and implemented) bot-generated > articles for both Wikipedias, but other Filipino Wikipedians have also seen > first-hand what bot-generated articles do. As I mentioned previously, the > Tagalog Wikipedia also had tens of thousands of bot-generated articles (our > article count went up from near-20,000 to over 60,000 as a result), which was > stopped only because of community opposition. The biggest question thus is > how will a small community be able to maintain all these articles to begin > with? > > Now, as I’ve understood Sverker has given Wikipedia editing workshops in > Cebu, as has Wikimedia Philippines in Samar and Leyte (where Waray is > spoken). At this point, we’re figuring out how to grow our community in > those regions, though if you ask me we’re still at a loss as to how we can > sustainably grow communities in the Philippines without us having to look at > them too closely. It’s not just a matter of content not being there—we’re > also dealing with a whole gamut of socio-cultural factors as to why after all > our attempts at introducing Wikipedia to people and showing them how to edit, > people still don’t choose to do so. > > That said, while I also think the Wikipedians concerned meant well, I hope > this serves as a lesson to those considering bot-generated articles: > bot-generated articles won’t jump-start a community, as the Cebuano and Waray > examples have shown. > > Regards, > > Josh > >> Wiadomość napisana przez Anders Wennersten <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> w dniu 7 lip 2015, o godz. 04:33: >> >> I am not saying this should be repeated. I am saying we should respect their >> choice, and not as outsiders criticize their effort. or put erroneous bad >> faith assumptions on why they did this choice. >> >> Anders >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ilario Valdelli skrev den 2015-07-07 13:21: >>> The best evaluation is to understand the evolution and the trend. >>> >>> In the last months in waray for instance I have seen less than 10 edits in >>> the overall project in one month. >>> >>> This is not revitalization. I agree with the enthusiasm of the community >>> members but I am personally in favor of comparison of numbers in a long >>> time perspective. >>> >>> I am happy to see more data and to monitor them to know if this is a model >>> to be replied but the numbers are not really supportive. >>> >>> Regards >>> Il 07/Lug/2015 13:12, "Anders Wennersten" <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> ha >>> scritto: >>> >>>> What gives you the right to be judgemental how they act on their version? >>>> Is that your idea of the movement values and vision, to talk badly of other >>>> efforts? >>>> >>>> and I know for a fact they did not to this to get into this list you are >>>> upset of. It is untrue when you state "like this which have inflated >>>> article counts" >>>> >>>> And I also know as a fact they are very happy with this effort because it >>>> has energized their small community. You talk of big increased I think of >>>> how many communities of this size that implodes which is a more common >>>> scenario. >>>> >>>> As I have already stated I have no problem that you (and others) have >>>> another view of the benefits of botgenrated arciels. >>>> >>>> But please be supportive to the very small communities, who do their best >>>> to survive and grow >>>> >>>> Anders >>>> >>>> Craig Franklin skrev den 2015-07-07 12:21: >>>> >>>>> There is already a consensus on enwiki (please, hold your rotten tomatoes) >>>>> that projects like this which have inflated article counts due to >>>>> extensive >>>>> botting rather than through having a lively community not be included on >>>>> the main page. I think a lot of the comments here about a huge article >>>>> count attracting communities to curate that content are somewhat >>>>> disingenous, it seems that despite having lots of articles there is only >>>>> one active user on Waray Wikipedia, who is responsible for more than 99% >>>>> of >>>>> total edits. As Milos has alluded to, "number of articles" is a poor >>>>> metric for understanding how useful a particular project is to speakers of >>>>> that language. >>>>> >>>>> Speaking here as a speaker of a minority language myself, I understand the >>>>> temptation of quickly creating lots of articles to have some sort of >>>>> demonstrable impact, and I believe there is a place for some bot >>>>> generation >>>>> of articles on any project. But after hitting "Random" a few times on >>>>> Waray, and seeing what came back, I'm not really sure how this is a more >>>>> useful resource for speakers of the language than just going into Wikidata >>>>> with the interface set to Waray. I believe the time honoured, if slower >>>>> way of creating a Wikipedia, lovingly handcrafting it article by article, >>>>> is far more likely to lead to a positive impact for people. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Craig >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 7 July 2015 at 07:55, Asaf Bartov <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Indeed, as Josh points out, there are also costs (even if only perceived >>>>>> or >>>>>> reputational costs) to populating a tiny Wikipedia with next to no active >>>>>> editors with hundreds of thousands of bot-generated stubs. Is having >>>>>> stubs >>>>>> on all French communes in Cebuano better than having nothing in Cebuano? >>>>>> Probably, yes. And by increasing pageviews (which is measurable), one >>>>>> increases the likelihood of "organic" conversion of readers into editors >>>>>> (which is *still* the most effective way to make Wikipedians, albeit not >>>>>> the easiest to directly control). >>>>>> >>>>>> But, again as Josh says, that increase in *editorship* is yet to be >>>>>> attained. The Waray Wikipedia (btw, "Waray-Waray" is, it turns out, >>>>>> objectionable to Waray speakers, and is mildly derogatory) is still >>>>>> largely >>>>>> edited by *one* committed individual, User:JinJian[1], as the stats >>>>>> plainly >>>>>> show. Given that the bot was run *with* JinJian's consent, there can be >>>>>> no >>>>>> objection to its operation. >>>>>> >>>>>> As Milos suggests, there seems to be an emotional response to those >>>>>> Wikipedias appearing in the top 10 view. This should be divorced from >>>>>> those communities' sovereign decisions to run or not run the bot. If the >>>>>> top 10 inclusion truly bothers people, and there's a strong consensus >>>>>> that >>>>>> Wikipedias largely populated by bot-generated stubs "should" not be >>>>>> included, a discussion could be had on what this view *should* mean, >>>>>> precisely, if not plainly the top 10 Wikipedias by article count. And >>>>>> whatever refined definition is agreed upon (e.g. thresholds like a >>>>>> minimum >>>>>> number of active editors, or some formula involving the "article depth" >>>>>> figure, or whatever) can then be made the basis for the list, or indeed, >>>>>> for a different list, that would be more satisfying for those who are >>>>>> displeased with being "under" these Wikipedias on the list. >>>>>> >>>>>> A. >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaWAR.htm#wikipedians >>>>>> <http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaWAR.htm#wikipedians> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Josh Lim <[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I can probably speak for those communities. On the whole, the logic >>>>>>> behind the Lsjbot experiment was simple: build it and they will come. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So far though, this hasn’t happened. We from the Tagalog Wikipedia were >>>>>>> also approached for this experiment, but we know what happens when >>>>>>> bot-generated articles are made: the community is overwhelmed. Out of >>>>>>> >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>>> fear, we declined to participate. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One of the concerns some editors in the Philippines have (and these are >>>>>>> sentiments I share) is that these two Wikipedias turn us into a >>>>>>> laughingstock, willing to increase article numbers at any cost. At one >>>>>>> point, the Cebuano Wikipedia was described as a Wikipedia of French >>>>>>> communes, not content relevant to Cebu or Cebuanos. I don’t think we’d >>>>>>> like that with other Wikipedias in the Philippines or elsewhere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wiadomość napisana przez WereSpielChequers < >>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>> w dniu 6 lip 2015, o godz. 04:52: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> These are fascinating experiments, I hope that the Waray-waray and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cebuano >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> communities will at some point report back to the wider community as to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> this worked out. My fear is that too fast a growth rate could overwhelm >>>>>>>> whatever community we have in those languages leading to burn out of >>>>>>>> existing editors dealing with too many newbies at once, my suspicion is >>>>>>>> that this will vary by language depending on such variables as the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ratio >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PC users to smartphone users, and the ease with which editors can >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> access >>>>>>> the necessary character sets. >>>>>>>> We have long known that bot creation of stubs that are of interest to >>>>>>>> speakers of a language is a way to recruit readers, and that some >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> readers >>>>>>> become editors. What I think we don't yet know is the maximum growth >>>>>>> rate >>>>>>> that a wiki community can cope with. >>>>>>>> There is also a sustainability angle, though hopefully we can mitigate >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> by bot replacing of articles where the source has changed but they >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> haven't >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> been edited on the Cebuano or Waray-waray Wikipedias. Otherwise within >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> decade we could have pedias that look very dated, for example various >>>>>>>> record holders whose articles in other languages show their records >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been surpassed, and villages >>>>>>>> WereSpielChequers >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM >>>>>>> Bachelor of Arts in Political Science >>>>>>> Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University >>>>>>> Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> | +63 (915) >>>>>>> 321-7582 >>>>>>> Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor >>>>>>> http://about.me/josh.lim <http://about.me/josh.lim> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Asaf Bartov >>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org >>>>>> <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org/>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the >>>>>> sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! >>>>>> https://donate.wikimedia.org <https://donate.wikimedia.org/> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> >>>> [email protected] >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM > Bachelor of Arts in Political Science > Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University > Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> | +63 (915) > 321-7582 > Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor > http://about.me/josh.lim <http://about.me/josh.lim> JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM Bachelor of Arts in Political Science Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> | +63 (915) 321-7582 Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor http://about.me/josh.lim <http://about.me/josh.lim> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
