I think some of the tensions might be reduced if WLM and similar photo drives were in future structured less around "national" contests, and "national" teams. This is a somewhat unusual way to organize activities in our movement, and I think alternatives might be possible, even as we rely to some degree on state heritage lists.
Thanks, Richard (User:Pharos) On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 4:50 AM Bodhisattwa <bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote: > Totally agreed with Alexey. We are not supposed to judge and sanction > people based on what their governments are doing. Our focus should > completely remain on how to digitally preserve built heritage of our > regions in a better way, keeping aside geopolitical conflicts and > differences. If we want to drag world politics and play UN here, then the > "international" part of the competition will be gone soon as no country in > this world is a piece of heaven fallen from the sky; geopolitical conflicts > are everywhere, even if they are not visible as wars. > > WLM is a collaborative international project and it should welcome any > country willing to document their heritage. There should be no exception! > > Regards, > Bodhisattwa > > On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 12:28 Aleksey Chalabyan <xelgen...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and >> will miss this call (or most of it) and since last time I followed >> principle of least drama. >> >> I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's >> box with dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of >> those requests etc, making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other >> international cooperation much, much less pleasent and if doable per se. It >> will fill more like all-against-all UN session or international court - >> then a collaborative, friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to get >> more free photos of monuments from every corner of the world. >> >> Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural >> genocides. Some get more media coverage, some less. But there will be a >> long line of countries to ban if we go there. And if we do - I personally, >> will add couple more countries to the top of the list, with a sound proofs >> of decades of cultural genocide done by them. >> >> Also there are countries with great track of preserving monuments, even >> if those are of another culture/religion, no wars started in centuries, but >> very poor track record of human rights in general, and let's say woman and >> LGBT rights in particular. Are those countries "good enough to play with >> us" or not? >> >> How about cases where monuments are preserved but culturally apropriated? >> How about millitary suppliers and military allies of countries we'll ban? >> How about countries where UNESCO officials were caught bribed by regimes to >> cover up acts of cultural genocide? How about UNESCO itself? >> How far do we go in our Wiki Loves Justice campaign? >> >> I mention no country name now on purpose, to preserve comfortable >> collaborative environment and not make anyone feel like they needs to >> defend themselves. I believe any true Wikimedian in good standing should >> feel safe and comfortable here for our international cooperation to be >> possible. Even if their governments and military do unforgivable and >> unforgettable crimes - as we speak, or a year, 10 or 100 years ago. >> >> That's not how and where we should punish those governments and regimes. >> And let's be frank they won't care. We'd just go far away from our mission >> and make our lives worse - less fun and less meaningful, and the only part >> we'd punish will be victims on the other side. >> >> P.S. Sorry for long letter, was short on time. (c) >> >> Love and peace, >> Aleksey a.k.a Xelgen >> >> 2024 թ. հնվ 21, կիր, 5:07 effe iets anders <effeietsand...@gmail.com> >> օգտատերը գրել է․ >> >>> Hi Illia, >>> >>> thanks for letting us know. I understand the constraints you must be >>> dealing with, and I wish we could have announced this earlier (not limited >>> to your situation - this is desirable for other reasons too). Please know >>> that it was not our intention to announce it last minute, but that we >>> realized too late that time was running out for this in the way I >>> explained. Hopefully we can indeed better meet the timeliness expectations >>> going forward. >>> >>> Lodewijk >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:04 PM Ilya Korniyko <intra...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Lodewijk, >>>> >>>> WLM Ukraine's organizing team is interested in this discussion, but >>>> it's difficult to find time for it on such a short notice -- because of the >>>> armed conflict most Ukrainian Wikimedians have to simultaneously fit into >>>> their agendas their main work, Wikimedia volunteering and activities we >>>> have to do because of the war. For example, I have an emergency casualty >>>> care training this Sunday, and another team member cannot join because she >>>> goes to a training area for drills on the same day. >>>> >>>> We ask that you take these circumstances into consideration and notify >>>> us in advance in the future. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Illia >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 2:23 AM effe iets anders < >>>> effeietsand...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> (with apologies for the delay in sending this announcement) >>>>> >>>>> This email discusses a sensitive topic of armed conflict, and may >>>>> contain triggers for some of our community members. While we appreciate >>>>> your input, please prioritize your own mental wellbeing and don't feel >>>>> obligated to respond or participate. I have tried to frame this as >>>>> sensitively as possible, but welcome constructive suggestions on how to do >>>>> this better off-list. >>>>> >>>>> Summary: On Sunday 21 January (08:00 PST, 16:00 UTC), the >>>>> international team of Wiki Loves Monuments will organize an office >>>>> hour/community conversation on: How should an international federated >>>>> photo >>>>> competition like WLM handle national teams, international finalists and >>>>> communication in the case of geopolitical armed conflict. We will announce >>>>> the link later, and you can register here: >>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office_hour >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Topic: In the past years, our communities have been confronted with >>>>> the question how to deal with a number of geopolitical armed conflicts. >>>>> This question came up in the past years in a few different ways: whether >>>>> photos of heritage from certain countries should be allowed to be >>>>> represented or compete in international competitions like Wiki Loves >>>>> Monuments, whether and how photos of heritage in disputed areas can >>>>> participate (especially when that dispute becomes an armed conflict) and >>>>> there are probably more ways ahead that various armed conflicts can make >>>>> an >>>>> international competition and communication about the competition complex. >>>>> There is no question whether human and cultural destruction is desirable, >>>>> and every war is likely one too many. >>>>> >>>>> Why now: It is particularly hard to discuss these sensitive topics >>>>> when they are current: it is a painful conversation for everyone to have, >>>>> especially because the people who are living through the real-life >>>>> consequences are given an additional burden of engaging in these >>>>> discussions, under the pressure of time. >>>>> >>>>> For this reason I believe it would be helpful to discuss this topic >>>>> without focusing on a specific conflict - but rather to discuss >>>>> principles. >>>>> How would we, generally speaking, international competitions such as Wiki >>>>> Loves Monuments like to be influenced by armed conflict? Are there >>>>> guidelines that they could maintain? At this point, we don't know who the >>>>> winners of Wiki Loves Monuments are, and we can still have an abstract >>>>> conversation. I don't expect this conversation to conclude right away, but >>>>> hope that we can continue it in a few months after the dust of the winning >>>>> images has settled. >>>>> >>>>> While this is already very soon, we have settled on Sunday 21 January, >>>>> 16:00 UTC to avoid getting too close to the announcement of international >>>>> winners. >>>>> >>>>> Framing: Some questions that come to mind as useful conversation >>>>> starters would include: >>>>> >>>>> * Under what conditions could or should a national team be >>>>> disqualified from participating in an international federated activity >>>>> such >>>>> as WLM? >>>>> >>>>> * If yes, who should make the decision whether to disqualify, and >>>>> using what criteria? Who should they consult? >>>>> >>>>> * Under what conditions could or should the national submissions be >>>>> disqualified, if a national competition already has taken place? >>>>> >>>>> * Should the international team make efforts to not appear to support >>>>> an armed conflict when communicating about the competition, or even >>>>> previous events? What are some guidelines that they could follow? >>>>> >>>>> I would invite others to contribute in framing a constructive >>>>> conversation (publicly or privately - when in doubt, just email me >>>>> privately). >>>>> >>>>> Conversation timeline: We want this to be the start of a constructive >>>>> community conversation with national organizers, international organizers >>>>> and other community members who feel they can constructively contribute. >>>>> We >>>>> welcome contributions from organizers of other similar international >>>>> competitions/activities. The conversation will be in English but if there >>>>> is sufficient interest, we can see if we can organize translation >>>>> resources >>>>> in future conversations. You can sign up here: >>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office_hour >>>>> . Please do sign up, in case we have to share the link privately. >>>>> >>>>> As mentioned, I don't expect this conversation to be "one and done". >>>>> It's a first step, and I expect to follow up with a next conversation in a >>>>> few months, and again around Wikimania - if there is sufficient interest. >>>>> >>>>> I will guide this conversation as a former WLM international team >>>>> member and a current advisor. >>>>> >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> >>>>> Lodewijk >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> wikilovesmonuments-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> wikilovesmonuments-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> wikilovesmonuments-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org > > _______________________________________________ > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list > To unsubscribe send an email to > wikilovesmonuments-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
_______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-le...@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
