Hey, Eelco I love Java, it is perfect for writing complex business logic because of all the tools and so forth, but as I said if it was just the web frameworks that were the problem the frameworks like Rails and Grails would be ignored.
I'm sure Wicket on its own is wondefully simple, but add persistence, dependency injecion, job scheduling, messaging systems etc. into the mix and it becomes horribly over complicated. With Groovy code I typically write 60% less code than in Java. Does that mean Java is a bad language? Hell no, its great, for somethings. I use Groovy when it makes sense and Java when it makes sense, its a highly effective blend. I'm not saying ditch Java, but writing everything in it is pure folly. That is why I hope the Grails+Wicket integration takes off as it providers Wicket users with this flexibility and Grails users with some of the nicer component features of Wicket. This is no framework war. As for the complex app you're building now, I'm totally with you I've been part of many projects where we've built complex Java systems. Sometimes you need to ask yourself though where is that complexity coming from? In often cases it is the language and implementing certain tasks in a nother language (like Groovy) makes a hell of a lot sense. And btw Grails is not just for CRUD. Cheers Graeme Eelco Hillenius wrote: > >> Haha, sorry but it seems some of the Wicket community are still living in >> Lala land with regards to believing everything deployed to production has >> to >> be written in Java. It is 2007, the realisation that Java is not the best >> language for web apps has hit home for years now. > > Oh, I can't disagree more. Java 'proved' (note that that's a very > subjective to start with) to be not the best language for web apps > because most of the 'Java' frameworks around are more focussed on > inventing declarative programming models, usually based on XML or > annotations than on enabling users to simply program Java like Wicket > made it it's goal. > > I'm sure Grails/ Groovy can give you an edge in cases, but at the same > time, I'm absolutely convinced it many cases such an edge would only > be short term (quick delivery of basic functionality). Take the > project I'm working on now. It's a complex beast, with hardly any real > straightforward CRUD functionality. The ability to refactor without > problems, navigate code quickly, reuse similar pieces of functionality > as custom components etc etc makes using Java very valuable. > > I don't want to get into yet another framework battle, certainly not > on our own mailing list, but imo, there are good cases for both, and a > level of integration would be more than welcome, especially because > users get to choose what they want while still being able to switch > from one to the other/ or do parts of their project in one and parts > in the other, and have a better level of reuse. > >> A good language for >> writing a lot of your business logic yes, but your business logic and web >> logic are two different things and if you're mixing them you're already >> making mistakes right there. > > You can just write n layers in Java and keep em separated. I don't see > any problems with that. > > Cheers, > > Eelco > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > Wicket-user mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user > > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Gricket%3A-The-Love-Child-of-Grails-and-Wicket-tf3772804.html#a10699110 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ _______________________________________________ Wicket-user mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
