On 4/11/07, Martijn Dashorst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 4/11/07, Jason Roelofs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wonder if someone here can answer me this question: Why do more and
more
> Java frameworks try to push users farther away from the tried-and-true
web
> experience of having web pages that submit to servers and create other
web
> pages?
I'm not sure what prompted this reaction. I can only point at [1] to
give you a baseline as to what the goals of Wicket are regarding the
programming model. If you don't like the programming model, then you
are welcome to suggest improvements, or if you /really/ don't like it
pick one you do like. We won't threaten you, or hate you for the
choice you make.
> Everything I see is trying to redefine how websites are developed and
> frankly I've yet to see a single framework that does this completely and
> doesn't get in the developer's way.
Again I'm not sure what is bothering you. How, where and why is Wicket
getting in your way?
> In the end, it's still a web page, and the expectations are there. For
example,
> I want to submit a form, process the data, and redisplay the same page,
> though with some changes according to what was inputted. I don't know
how
> to do this and I can't find anything in the docs. Why is something so
simple,
> so trivial anywhere else not also trivial here in Wicket?
I am sorry that you are not able to do and find what you want. But
asking the right questions in the right tone will get you ahead much
better than complaining that you couldn't perform a task so simple.
Some things in Wicket require getting used to. One of those things are
the Model concept, which is probably the cause of your frustration.
> I've never messed with the likes of Echo or GWT, but I can't think that
> these are any better as they try to abstract even farther by generating
> Javascript for super-dynamic (read: one-page browser-breaking)
applications.
Neither have I but I think they are filling a niche that needs to be
filled. Apparently Google knows how to build a great application using
GWT that scales tremendously (though they have the hardware and the
bandwidth to support such scale too).
> Why is this, and where are the "modern" Java web frameworks that don't
try
> to reinvent the concept of a website?
I'm not sure what you mean by reinventing the concept of a website. If
you talk about single page, ajax enabled, back button breaking
applications... then wicket should fit your bill, as we support all 3
modes:
* the usual multi page applications using traditional links
(sprinkled with some
ajax where it makes sense)
* the less usual single page application using traditional links (using
panel
replacement, not breaking the back button, possibly sprinkled with
some ajax),
* the full blown single page, ajax enabled, back button breaking
(though I think
there are some ideas to enable the back button too, Dojo at least
has support
for that) interface.
Wicket requires a more than basic understanding of object orientation:
you need to know about the lifecycle of objects: construction (only
once), rendering (multiple times), clean up (garbace collection,
depending on the pagemap strategy). Once you grok the idea that
construction is only done once, and that anything you push into
components, will not update, then you're golden.
Martijn
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/wicket/vision.html
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@Igor:
It's not trivial because it requires complete understanding of the whole
Model system of Wicket. As per my actual question email, Martijn posted
exactly what I'm doing and how to solve it.
In one aspect it is a part of learning a library, on the other hand it fits
in with what I'm wondering: why the basic assumptions of building a web site
keep getting thrown out of the window with every new Java web framework. I
realize that people like the Swing framework for application building; I do
to, it's quite fun to work with. But this isn't desktop application
development, this is web application development. I've yet to see a website
built to act like a desktop application that wasn't slow, buggy, broken in
many browsers, convoluted and hard to use or any combination of these.
This is one of the reasons that Rails is so successful. It doesn't try to
redefine how websites are made, it simply makes it easier to follow the
paradigms that have been in play for 15+ years. Now please don't take this
as a bash towards Wicket, I'm just trying to understand why Java web
frameworks are what they are and why people aren't creating frameworks that
make it easier and simpler to do what people have been doing for years. Is
it because of Java itself? the Java community? Sun Microsystems? IBM
WebSphere? What do you think?
Jason
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