I'm going to mass-reply to all the emails on this topic at once, so
please bear with me :)
If one clicks on a link from one bookmarkable page onto another, why
should a session get created? As far as I can tell, it shouldn't.
If one clicks on a link from a bookmarkable page to a non-bookmarkable
one, creating a session is fine.
And even if Google does somehow magically support cookies, what about
the hundreds of different other crawlers that might not? Besides, we
don't even know that Google does cookies :) I'd rather not make this
assumption if I can avoid it.
Matej Knopp wrote:
No, I'm afraid that wouldn't help. URLS without session id would create new
URL. I don't think it's desired behavior.
I meant ...would create new session (not new URL).
I disagree. This is *exactly* what we want. We want lazy session
creation, in order to ensure that moving from one bookmarkable page to
another does not require a session. Upon you hit a non-bookmarkable
page, go ahead and create a session, I don't see a problem with that.
I believe it's encodeURL method of HttpServletResponse that inserts the jessionid in URL. The container itself has AFAIK no idea what in the response body is url and what's not.
Right, but it is Wicket that is calling encodeURL in the first place
and we *do* know if the response is bookmarkable or not so we can
control this.
However, when the client has cookies enabled, jsessionid usually goes away after the first request. That must be the container that decides that, probably in it's implementation of the servlet API.
This is because jsessionid moves from URL rewriting to getting stored
in a cookie. I'm not 100% sure why it shows up even the first time, but
I don't think this is the point either. We shouldn't require a session
for bookmarkable pages.
yes, but it is the container's responsibilty. It is not Wicket adding it.
It is Wicket's responsibility not to create the session in the first
place.
Gili
Matej Knopp wrote:
Johan Compagner wrote:
who is inserting the jsessionid?
I think it happens when we call encodeUrl() maybe we shouldn't do that
for bookmarkable urls?
Don't think so. When cookies are disabled clicking on URL without
session id would lose the session (resp. create a new one). So after
clicking on a bookmarkable page you wouldn't be able to continue working
on application.
I don't think jsessionid as a problem here. Google indexes it well.
Maybe it's not even generated for google. Maybe google crawler pretends
to support cookies and just throws them away.
-Matej
johan
Matej Knopp wrote:
Once again. The URLS of wicket application that need to be crawled
are bookmarkable pages (urls like
app?bookmarkablePage=foo.bar.pageClass).
Bookmarkable pages have only one parameter. So they are already
crawler friendly.
All other (app?component=, app?path=, etc) should not be crawled at
all, because they lead to session relative pages.
So the only thing to take care of is removing jsessionid form the
middle of the url and placing them as parameter to url tail.
-Matej
Gili wrote:
URL rewriting seems like a decent option so long as you recall
that Google limits you to two parameters. This means the problem now
becomes rewriting Wicket URLs to be "crawler-friendly" with one or
two parameters :)
Gili
Eelco Hillenius wrote:
Gili wrote:
http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html
Note that requiring cookies might prevent the crawler from
indexing your pages.
This is further discussed here:
http://www.searchengineguide.com/whalen/2004/0210_jw1.html and
http://www.optimizekit.com/kb/categories/Do's-and-Dont's/
Major points here: crawlers will absolutely refuse to index pages
with cookies or jsessionids.
If I had a choice between decent back support versus getting
indexed by Google, I'd choose the latter :) Hopefully we can do both.
I take your point seriously, but as stated before, we just can't do
that. There are break out's though, the easiest one to do url
rewriting. This is from the site you sent a link to above:
<quote>
One way to circumvent this difficulty is to create static versions
of your site's dynamic pages for search engines to crawl.
Unfortunately, duplicating your pages is a huge amount of extra
work and a constant maintenance chore, plus the resulting pages are
never quite up-to-date — all the headaches dynamic pages were
designed to eliminate. A far better strategy is to follow the lead
of Amazon and rewrite your dynamic URLs in a syntax that search
engines will gladly crawl.
*URLs that look like this: *
amazon.com/store?shop=cd&sku= B00004WFIZ&ref=p_ir_m&sessionID=
107-6571839-6268523
*/become:/*
amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ref=
B00004WFIZ/ref=pd_ir_m/107-6571839-6268523
</quote>
You could do either the rewrite (the easiest) or create static
pages from your dynamic content now.
Another thing I'd like to note here is that Wicket doesn't force
you to use cookies. Wicket does all the encoding for you, where's
when working with e.g. plain JSP's or model 2 frameworks, it is a
common thing to forget to encode all links. And if you forget it,
it means your browser has to fall back on cookies, or that - in
case you configured your servlet engine to not use cookies - it
fails. I've seen this go wrong (developers forgetting it) in
/every/ webapplication I know of, allways resulting in complaints
that the webapp didn't work for some people (that is the people
that turned of cookies) after it was put in production.
Eelco
Gili
Eelco Hillenius wrote:
Nope, we do need a session for everything except a trivial page
(and from the framework to figure out whether the page is
'trivial' that would involve some major hacking). EVERYTHING that
can trigger a 'postback', be it forms, links or whatever, needs
that page to be in the session.
It might be a feature request for our next version (1.2 that is)
when we tackle the whole stateless page thing (if we ever tackle
that succesfully, as currently the disadvantages seem to be
greater than the very few advantages it would get you... but
that's another discussion for some other time). But for 1.0.1/
1.1, we can't change it.
Eelco
Gili wrote:
First, I like the new setPageAlias() functionality :)
I still don't understand however why one needs to store the Page
component ID on the session (at least for bookmarkable pages the
first time they are hit). Also, Eelco previously mentioned that
jsessionid is only showing up because we're creating a session.
My point is, we *shouldn't* be creating a session for
bookmarkable pages unless for example the page contains a form,
and someone submits it. We should be creating session on-demand,
not right away. Maybe once I understand more about why we need
path=X, this will make more sense.
Thanks,
Gili
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