I think Julio / speedbird makes a good observation about granularity (e.g.
{{=form}} is too coupled to controller), but I think goes - similarly to
Hans - off into solution (and perhaps too far the other end of the
spectrum).
I still at some level agree w/ Massimo:
Tags / format that looks like:
{{=form.custom.begin}}
{{=form.custom.widget.somefield}}
{{=form.custom.end}}
looks consistent, allows separation of logic and presentation in a clean,
concise, and readable way, and gets away from the overly-coupled design
effect of {{=form}} (which is fine, I think, for default rendering
behaviors). The reason to have this in view / template code - as in the
lines above - rather than customizing the default behavior of {{=form}}
somewhere in code is, among other reasons, precisely because you need to be
able to have graphic professionals at some point work with you.
My point of bringing out the wikiForm stuff is that it (for me, at least)
raised some interesting points - e.g. setting defaults about the form all
with the form definition (albeit in wikiForms, the variable names and
default values are "all there with the form).
- I want to know how, in one place in the single controller, I would update
the field default values; combine say fields from 2 tables, and add
non-databacked parts all to one form. I also want to take the idiom from
wikiForms, and ask what is the best way to define / set VIEW-like defaults
within the pattern which Massimo showed here.
For example: Massimo shows how WikiForms and view template are same; I
have said wikiForms put data / logic defaults _with_ form definition, and I
do NOT want to do that - BUT I want to take the example, and ask "how do I
put (???) div-defaults to Massimo's template example so that the graphic
designer can layout some (????) CSS, and I can assign, or modify them in
Massimo's structure "like" wikiForms does (but I want to do it with
presentation aspects, not data/logic aspects, as default values, behaviors I
want to keep in the widget / controller).
Does this make sense?
I am REALLY less concerned w/ gui or tools or setup - I want cleanliness of
description so that others may work with me, and so that I can get precisely
the results I want, with least possible complexity (but no less).
Web2py has been great for compact expression, and default behaviors. I think
when sitting with paying clients who want something specific, and working
with their art departments etc. we need to look at what can we do to make
that interaction with those collaborators as easy.
Regards,
Yarko
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Speedbird <ju...@techfuel.net> wrote:
>
> Excellent reply IMHO, I've been "slightly" slapped in the wrist on
> previous posts when I talked about separation of logic and
> presentation, a very subjective topic if you will, since where to
> define that "fine line" in presentation vs logic implementation for
> one thing..
>
> I'd rather have a UI designer give me a mock up that I can write my
> code for it, I respectfully think Massimo is spending way too much
> time in this so called html helpers which already exists in the HTML
> world, for instance, I'd rather have in my VIEW something like this:
>
> <form method="post" action="">
> <input type="hidden" id="foo" name="foo"
> value="{{=request.vars.baz}}" />
> ...
> <input type="text" id="eenie" name="meenie" value="{{=request.vars.get
> ('moe', '')}}" />
> ..
> </form>
>
> And have the underlying logic to handle my variables in my
> controller..
>
> Than to do a single VIEW with nothing on it but a {{=form}} and have
> my pyhon code generate the html/markup for me
>
> I believe the OP was leaning towards this scenario, they appear to
> want to have an "Export yo web2Py" plug (which will internally create
> a controller rather than a view) this hypothetical controller would
> have all the code to in turn have web2py generate the markup for, I
> personally like to have all my back-end done first, and then add it a
> presentation layer on it, however a mock up will never hurts I have to
> admit.
>
> My application, pyforym, follows this specific pattern, I do not have
> any html helpers in the controller nor I need to put them there, As an
> example: I've already offset some UI work to a very good friend in
> Australia and he made some changes to the UI (view) which did not
> impact my code (controller) at all, yes, as I said again, this is a
> "perspective" thing, but in 11+ years coding (hands-on) for a living
> (in python in fact) I can tell you that it works and it is effective.
>
> Will I trash talk or put down the logic/presentation mix up pattern?,
> no way, programming in web2py is an "art" and one is entitled to use
> all the tools that it provides, one thing is for sure, I'd continue to
> advocate foe using this excellent framework whenever possible. cheers!
>
> Julio
>
> On Jun 29, 1:09 am, annet <annet.verm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I appreciate web2py as it is. In the past I worked with Adobe GoLive,
> > NetBeans, JDeveloper and ADF and Filemaker. Beautiful software, I
> > implemented use case after use case by simply dragging and dropping
> > components and clicking my way through dialog boxes. However, the
> > moment I wanted to adjust the generated code I was overwhelmed by the
> > amount of code the software had generated in different files.
> >
> > Web2py is the first framework that allows me to implement my
> > application the way I designed it, my lack of Python knowledge is the
> > limit, not the framework. I love building my own views in html, css
> > and js keeping structure, style and action separated, something none
> > of these IDE's complied with.
> >
> > I hope web2py will stay as 'clean' as it is, and not become another
> > 'NetBeansese' IDE.
> >
> > Annet.
> >
>
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