That’s what I thought, thank you for clarifying. I was just confused because of 
the language in Paul’s previous explanation—no fault of his.

But in the bottom of the barrel, it will leave some folks with a conundrum 
about what to do when XYZTelecom sends their good conversational traffic 
through their peer A, and their crappier traffic through their peer B. But I 
suppose that is the very dilemma that this technique is meant to force.

—
Sent from mobile, with due apologies for brevity and errors.

> On Sep 2, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Mark Lindsey <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> SHAKEN doesn't record the chain (like you'd see with Via headers, for 
> example) of Intermediate Providers who handle the call. There's only one 
> Identity header and it is to be passed unchanged from the origin point to the 
> terminating Voice Service Provider.
> 
> When the Identity header with PASSporT arrives at the final Voice Service 
> Provider, that recipient can determine who created the PASSporT and then make 
> judgments. For example, there has been a lot of discussion in FCC filings 
> about "reputation" of service providers. Perhaps you could subscribe to a 
> Reputation database to determine what to do with the calls.
> 
> For example, "This call got an A level attestation from XYZTelecom, but 
> XYZTelecom has a 5% score in the reputation database, so I'm going to treat 
> it as if this call is likely a nuisance call."
> 
> 
> 
> Mark R Lindsey, SMTS | +1-229-316-0013 | [email protected] | https://ecg.co/lindsey/
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 2, 2020, at 2:52 PM, Alex Balashov <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you, that’s very clear and sums it all up! 
>> 
>> One lingering question: even without providing a fully attestable chain of 
>> custody, if the call took a route A -> B -> C, are signatures cumulative 
>> such that I could block calls attested by B coming through C? Or am I 
>> constrained to blocking a certain level of attestation only through the 
>> last/proximate peering hop (C) that directly touches me?
>> 
>> I suppose success is going to come down to the on-the-ground realities, 
>> political viability, etc of taking that “block attested calls from carrier 
>> X” step.
>> 
>> —
>> Sent from mobile, with due apologies for brevity and errors.
>> 
>>>> On Sep 2, 2020, at 2:47 PM, Paul Timmins <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> The solution is that you sign your calls with your certificate. Carriers 
>>> aren't doing LNP dips to verify the number is really yours, they're 
>>> trusting your attestation (A: yes, the caller id is verified, B: it comes 
>>> from our customer, but not verified, C: "this touched our switches, good 
>>> luck with it"). If you attest total nonsense as A, or send tons of nonsense 
>>> in general, people start blocking calls you sign.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It really verifies who is sending the call, and what that company says the 
>>> call is verified, not a full chain of custody of the number back to the 
>>> NANPA/PA. Could you attest A a call from "0" or "911", or "999-999-9999"? 
>>> Yes, you could. It'd work for a while, til someone said "Wow, Alex's SPID 
>>> is signing tons of bullshit. Let's block attested calls from his SPID"
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Paul
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: VoiceOps <[email protected]> on behalf of Alex Balashov 
>>> <[email protected]>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 2:42 PM
>>> To: VoiceOps
>>> Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Outsourcing STIR/SHAKEN Setup
>>>  
>>> LCR or no LCR, using a termination vendor that is different to one’s 
>>> origination vendor for a given CID is more normal than not in VoIP. I would 
>>> guess it’s the default wholesale use-case. Origination and termination are 
>>> very different business models with radically different economics.
>>> 
>>> I’m not clear on what the official STIR/SHAKEN solution to this is. I 
>>> assume it’s delegated certificates as Jared suggested.
>>> 
>>> —
>>> Sent from mobile, with due apologies for brevity and errors.
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 2, 2020, at 2:39 PM, Carlos Alvarez <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If I understand correctly, no as long as your providers are all supporting 
>>>> this.  What I think you mean is that you get origination/DIDs from say 
>>>> Bandwidth, and you use LCR to route calls to whoever is cheapest?  There 
>>>> are ways to work with that challenge as long as your carriers are ready to 
>>>> do so.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 11:28 AM Jared Geiger <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> If we purchase our numbers through wholesalers, would we need delegated 
>>>>> certificates if we are sending an outbound call through a vendor that is 
>>>>> not the wholesaler we got the number from?
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 7:22 AM Dave Frigen <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> There is a STIR-SHAKEN process of registering and testing with the Policy
>>>>>> Administrator (PA) as a certified Service Provider (SP) before you can
>>>>>> purchase SHAKEN token certificates from a Certificate Authority (CA) and
>>>>>> begin to engage in using the technology. This is not a walk in the park.
>>>>>> Transnexus is one of two public CA's in the U.S. today. They are experts 
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the subject and can help you through both processes. In order to get the
>>>>>> best call attestation you must prove to the PA and CA that you are a bono
>>>>>> fide service provider and not a bad-acting enterprise on a network that
>>>>>> deserves lesser attestation levels. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> One of the registration requirements is a SP 's access to valid national
>>>>>> phone number pools. This has been very confusing for some resale 
>>>>>> providers
>>>>>> that purchase and use numbers from wholesalers only. If your organization
>>>>>> does not have it's own numbering resources, you can register using your
>>>>>> wholesale provider's numbering pool data. Don't assume you have to 
>>>>>> register
>>>>>> with the FCC and possess your own pool of numbers to become a registered
>>>>>> SHAKEN SP.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> SHAKEN ROBO call mitigation is a new frontier, and obtaining the best
>>>>>> attestation level possible for a SP is essential to the SP and the SHAKEN
>>>>>> ecosystem. Register and test for the best attestation level possible.
>>>>>> Transnexus is a seasoned expert on the subject and a U.S. registered CA 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the PA. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: VoiceOps <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Mary Lou 
>>>>>> Carey
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2020 5:36 PM
>>>>>> To: Dovid Bender <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Cc: Voiceops.org <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Outsourcing STIR/SHAKEN Setup
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm a Carrier Consultant who's been helping CLEC, IXC, Paging, Wireless 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> VOIP carriers install and maintain their PSTN networks for the the last 
>>>>>> 20
>>>>>> years. I can help clients get their FCC Certification to become a
>>>>>> STIR/SHAKEN carrier as well as Numbering Resources, NPAC / LSR training, 
>>>>>> etc
>>>>>> (if you need those pieces). Once my clients get their certification, I 
>>>>>> refer
>>>>>> them to TransNexus. Jim and his team can help you with the process of
>>>>>> turning your STIR/SHAKEN services up.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> MARY LOU CAREY
>>>>>> BackUP Telecom Consulting
>>>>>> Office: 615-791-9969
>>>>>> Cell: 615-796-1111
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2020-08-31 05:37 AM, Dovid Bender wrote:
>>>>>> > Hi,
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> > Does anyone have a recommendation for a company that get us everything 
>>>>>> > needed for STIR/SHAKEN setup? By setup I mean helping us file to get a 
>>>>>> > cert etc. From the small research I have done there is a lot of 
>>>>>> > fragmented information out there and it would be easier for us to pay 
>>>>>> > someone else to do this then invest our own time to take care of this.
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> > TIA.
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> > Dovid
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > VoiceOps mailing list
>>>>>> > [email protected]
>>>>>> > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> Mark R Lindsey, SMTS | +1-229-316-0013 | [email protected] | https://ecg.co/lindsey/
> 
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