We moved our web Extranet to Tapestry starting a little over three years ago. We chose Tapestry in order to solve a number of interoperability problems that had developed within our organization over time. We needed to move away from a dated Perl web API that was difficult to maintain and had poor integration with our internal software systems (all Java based).
Due to the nature and size of these systems, this was a drawn out process, in the past we found Perl was quick and efficient to develop in, but as our software systems grew in complexity, Java became more attractive. We looked to Tapestry in order to move to a pure Java environment and to create something more maintainable. Our integration problems were partly solved using, at first Hivemind, and then later Tapestry IoC... we managed to abstract our codebase enough to run Tapestry in parallel with Perl, and tapestry components provided a modular view technology, which in turn provided us with a productive and reliable solution to migrate to what became, in retrospect, a highly testable and productive environment. Peter Stavrinides Albourne Partners Ltd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Otho" <taa...@googlemail.com> To: "Tapestry users" <users@tapestry.apache.org> Sent: Saturday, 18 April, 2009 11:29:56 GMT +02:00 Athens, Beirut, Bucharest, Istanbul Subject: Re: [REQUEST] Live T5 web sites, quotes, marketting It's very similar for me, but on a smaller scale. I developed a couple of internal apps in T5, mostly integration with legacy stuff and also an app which for me replaces the most annoying parts of the horrid interface of the webshop-software in use. Since I am lazy I looked into the scripting frameworks, too (as can be easily seen from my posts here on this list ;) ) but always come back to T5 on Java. The reason is simply productivity as understood: Time and effort I need to get a finished, useable product. Dynamic languages are really only >good< for prototypes or somewhat simplistic stuff. This doesn't mean they can't be used for complex applications, they just lose the race for productivity then. The possible IDE support is limited principally, since there is no way for the IDE to know what I intend to do with dynamic properties and methods and thus many errors which I see in Java as I type, occur in dynamic languages only at runtime and mostly with exceptions and error messages which are all but helpful in tracking the problem down. The few lines of code (IF any) you can save compared to Tapestry 5 are easily eaten up by less maintainability and added debugging time. Furthermore in Java I anyways only type like 60% of the code, since static typing enables much more autocompletion and code generation which then is actually typo-free and also easy to refactor if need be. Thus "lines of code" which are waived so much nowadays are really a non issue, as is the "verbosity" of Java. Constructs like List<Whatever> = new ArraysList<Whatever>(); may be "verbose", but they also denote exactly my intent, are readable and written mostly by the IDE anyways. And you don't need a comment to understand what is going on. All in all I would says that I am much more productive with Java/Tap5 than with any other Java Framework and also more productive than with dynamic frameworks. The measures Tapestry takes to reduce boilerplate help while still maintaining the Java typical readability, but mostly it is the very natural flow of coding which is enabled by Tapestry itself and its seamless Spring integration. 2009/4/17 Ville Virtanen <ville.virta...@cerion.fi> > > Hi, > > nice to see what others are making. We use T5 to build different kinds of > systems for public and private sectors, but mainly budgeting and enterprise > resource planning and monitoring software. Currently we have 4 T5 systems > in > production all in different client's environments, and two more projects > are > nearing release almost immediately. > > Our software typically integrates to multiple other systems, like personnel > registries, data warehouses, salary systems, reporting systems etc. to > combine all the wonderful data already present in most companies and to > present it in usable and efficient way. The number of systems, old and new > that are in use in a typical firm is overwhelming.. > > We'll anyway T5 has proven to be stable, doesn't require much resources to > do it's tasks and is easy and reliable to integrate to almost anything. The > most important thing to us is that T5 allows us, you could even say directs > us, to architect our systems easily and well, it supports us to write > easy-to-understand code by removing all that clutter and exposes only the > real things we wish to do, which directly means less code, which directly > means quality and reduced costs (the drop of unsuccesfull code inspections > etc.) lowered bug fix times etc. And we can also sell cheaper in the first > place and win more cases, as development times have dropped. > > Also it can be seen that the developers who work with T5 are more motivated > and happy with their work than those that are still stuck maintaining old > Struts and servlet stuff. This cannot be calculated and is hard to prove, > but there is definitely that trend: whether developer maintains or creates > new functionality with Struts (or asp.net) they usually start with "why > me, > couldn't xxx do it", where as with T5 software it usually is "ok, let's go > through the specs..." > > Before we have used Struts, plain servlets, T4 and we still use asp.net / > C# > for clients that require it, and so far there just is no match for T5 when > software must be developed with minimum cost, but still to the standard and > professionally. (Which, in my opinion, excludes all scripting languages.) > > There definitely is learning curve (as with any new technology), but in my > opinion it definitely is worth it. > > Our end products aren't that attractive or flashy, and most of the sites > are > intranet-only software anyway so I don't have any sites to provide. I also > don't have any hard numbers to back my statements that I can publish, but I > do know that the projects we sold two years ago would be sold for about > 10-20% cheaper today. (And I mean technical development time, not the > overall price to which I have no access.) If we would change back to using > old technologies we would have to add 10-20% to our work estimates. Also > the > customer benefits: the bought software is less error prone, easier to > maintain and develop further. > > Tapestry 5 is no silver bullet, you still have to think before you code, > but > it does clearly add value. We are 100% committed to Tapestry 5 and will be > using and recommending it for upcoming projects. > > - Ville > > Ps. What I stated above is my experience in the firm I work for. On top of > that I have developed wholesale trade software system on my own for > orientimport.fi, which makes 7th system that uses T5 that I've build. > (Currently only static website, in about month there should be the real > system online.) > > > Howard Lewis Ship wrote: > > > > I'm putting together some new presentations about Tapestry and I could > > use the help of the Tapestry community. > > > > I need more pictures of live T5 sites. Just send me a URL and I can > > do a screen grab. This is all about answering the question: "is it > > mature?" > > > > I make a number of reasonable observations about Tapestry 5, but would > > love quotes to back it up: > > - Fast and easy to develop > > - Helps with big teams > > - Great performance > > - Great internationalization / localization > > - Live class reloading gives "almost scripting language productivity" > > > > > > so quotes along the lines of "we were able to quickly put together > > xyz" or "we found qrstuv much easier than our last framework" or > > "would have been a failure without Tapestry". Don't let me put words > > in your mouth, however! > > > > -- > > Howard M. Lewis Ship > > > > Creator of Apache Tapestry > > Director of Open Source Technology at Formos > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org > > > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://www.nabble.com/-REQUEST--Live-T5-web-sites%2C-quotes%2C-marketting-tp23050433p23095252.html > Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
