Kevin, the mistake made every time this issue comes up, and I've seen since the
N word letter was followed by egro, is the silly notion that changing
nomenclature will change anything real when what is needed is more respect for
what a person brings to a situation than manufactured respect for what they are
physically. It implies very directly that a person who respects another for his
accomplishments ignoring skin color is a de facto racist. You are sending
exactly the wrong message. Respect a person for his abilities and character
today. The past, the skin color, the number of properly working appendages, the
presence or absence of hair on the head, the preferred partner choices, matter
only in very specific circumstances. Respect for a person's abilities and
character apply to every situation. Which does more good?
{^_^}
On 20200714 06:15:36, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
Dave,
The goal of removing racially-charged language is to be more inclusive by being
less offensive and more aware of the language we use without thinking.
Re: Apache naming, you are mixing up the duties of the Apache SpamAssassin
Project with the Apache Software Foundation. This is just an argument fallacy.
My knowledge on the matter is that Brian Behlendorf, one of the ASF founders,
reached out decades ago to discuss this with the Apache Nation council with all
being good. The only change is that in 2009, they asked us to standardize on
referring to them as the Apache Nation but otherwise, there are no issues with
the Apache name. We are proud to use the name Apache and hope that our great
work as a foundation brings it the honor it deserves.
Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dave Goodrich <dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org
<mailto:dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org>> wrote:
No, I am reading your words. The goal here is to remove language you, and
others, believe to be racially charged. To what goal, I cannot understand.
If you change whitelist/blacklist for the reason you have given, you must
change the name Apache and change it's logo. The root and origin of both are
not important, it is culturally insensitive to use the name Apache if you
are not a native American. To not go all the way with this would simply be
wrong.
DAve
----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Kevin A. McGrail <kmcgr...@apache.org
<mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org>> wrote:
I think you are reading other people's take on things. Clearer language
was an added bonus but never the reason. The reason was to remove
racially charged language and 4.0 was a good opportunity to do it since
the major bump would allow for disruption. Further, this article was
what reminded me to bring it up:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-ncsc-to-stop-using-whitelist-and-blacklist-due-to-racial-stereotyping/
Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:23 AM Dave Goodrich
<dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org <mailto:dgoodr...@greenfieldin.org>> wrote:
The wrong side of history? Are you kidding me?
I have been a long time user of Apache products. SA has been my go
to solution for decades. Until this morning, I was without opinion
on this issue and I even understood, and agreed, that the change had
merit for clarity. But, 'go along or be on the wrong side of
history' (sic) tells me this is not about a more clear and
understandable naming convention. This is posturing and pandering.
I am disappointed greatly. Very disappointed.
DAve
----- On Jul 14, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Kevin A. McGrail
<kmcgr...@apache.org <mailto:kmcgr...@apache.org>> wrote:
Marc and others about voting,
The ASF is a meritocracy not a democracy. Voting privileges are
earned by demonstrating merit on a project. That is the project
management committee aka the PMC. Discussion with the PMC on
this change started in early April with a vote in early May by
the PMC.
To Marc, your Ad hominem attacks are not needed and I will
ignore messages that use them.
To you and others spouting off, be reminded that this is a
publicly archived mailing list and you will be on the wrong side
of history. Consider that when you post.
Regards, KAM
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 03:51 Marc Roos <m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu
<mailto:m.r...@f1-outsourcing.eu>> wrote:
> I never said it was being done for engineering reasons.
The change is
> being done to remove racially-charged language from
Apache
> SpamAssassin. As an open source project, we are part of
a movement
> built on a foundation of inclusion that has changed how
computing is
> done. The engineering concerns are outweighed by the
social benefits
> and your huffing is not going to stop it.
>
If you are referencing opensource and community. Why is this
group not
voting on this? Why is only a small group deciding what is
being done?
Such a vote, hardly can classify as open source, community
nor
democratic.
