Personally, I've used blueprint with OSGI, Camel for several years now - still works just fine even with the latest version of Karaf (4.3.X - haven't tried 4.4.1), Camel (3.18.1), and JDK 11.
On Tue, Sep 6, 2022 at 4:03 AM Bert Speckels <bert.speck...@gmail.com> wrote: > Some (all) good points Raymon > > I think this is a very good summary and I have nothing to add :-) > > Currently we are trying to use some workarounds: > - Live without CDI ... I think this is less painful than we think at the > moment. > - Build our own Endpoint DSL :-) ... not quite difficult > - Wrap Morphia for MongoDB in our own OSGI bundle (may that works) > > And last but not least: Contributing to open source is definitely an option > for me. But first I have to "get my feet wet" ... > > With kind regards > Bert. > > Am Di., 6. Sept. 2022 um 10:35 Uhr schrieb ski n <raymondmees...@gmail.com > >: > > > Hi Bert, > > > > The mailing list is fine for general discussions regarding Camel. It's > > surely not just about questions on errors, but some share experience, > > blogs, releases, projects or just need to some help with decisions they > > need to make. This is all community based, so sometimes you are lucky > that > > people have time and the knowledge to help you, in other times there is > no > > one. We just help each other the best we can. > > > > Just note that the Camel Framework is both old and huge. It supports > > hundreds technologies. Some have very good documentation, some are not so > > well documented. You are very welcome to help when you have the time. > > > > More on Karaf. I personally have not a lot of knowledge on OSGi and CDI > in > > particular. I did run Camel with various runtimes including Karaf, > Wildfly, > > Spring Boot, Main and I build my own runtime Assimbly runtime (See also > > discussion on runtimes: > > https://lists.apache.org/list?users@camel.apache.org:2022-1 in the > > archive). > > > > My personal experience is that every runtime has its advantages and > > disadvantages. I had the easiest experience with Spring Boot, but for > sure > > other runtimes have their appeal. I agree that Karaf is very strong in > > concept, but in practice can be complicated. Karaf actually was one of > (or > > the first) supported runtime for Camel, but that was purely focussed at > > XML. Over the years it lost some traction, this is because modularization > > in general (whether it's through OSGi or Java Modularization/Jigsaw) adds > > complexity to applications and integrations. A lot of developer and > > projects like frameworks and libraries abbondon this idea. For OSGi they > > need for example build seperate jars and maintain extra files. The > > popularity is fading. However there are still some developers that > provide > > excellent work in this area (like Jean-Baptiste Onofre) and who knows > when > > more people/companies will work on it will gain popularity. > > > > I think OSGi still have many advantages like: > > > > 1. BuildTime Modularity > > 2. Runtime Modularity > > 3. Hybrid (Works equally good on premisse and the cloud) > > > > That said I too had some issues with it. For example getting Groovy to > > work properly: > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KARAF-7397?filter=-2 > > > > At the end I found that for most runtimes one needs to adjust too much > > code to let it run for the specific runtime. I just want to write plain > > Java/Camel code and used Maven/Docker for > modularization/containerization. > > That's why I created my own runtime project ( > > https://github.com/assimbly/runtime). In comparison to my project, Karaf > > however is excellent documented :) > > > > My point is that in open source there are always multiple strategies to > > work on problems: > > > > 1. Report/Ask > > > > Use channels to ask/report. For Camel these are the mailing list, Zulip > > (chat), StackOverflow and Jira. The mailing list/zulip are the most > > approachable, but there you probably only get a direction how to get to a > > solution (or even nothing, when there is no one to help on that subject. > Or > > Claus is on vacation...). StackOverflow and Jira have more chance that it > > will get solved, but then it is expected that you provide a clear > > description of the problem, the versions/runtime/os you need and often > code > > to reproduce the problem. But also this is best effort. > > > > 2. Workaround > > > > In a lot of cases, because Camel is just Java there are ways to > workaround > > an issue. I would say 9 out of 10 I could find some solution for things I > > run into and that weren't well documented. Sometimes I asked a collegue > and > > we did some pair programming. > > > > 3. Commercial offerings > > > > If you need dedicated support (for example because you are in a large > > organization) you can get commercial support from for example Red Hat, > > Talend (and other > > https://camel.apache.org/manual/commercial-camel-offerings.html). As a > > free contractor I am dependent on the organization where I work for how > > this is arranged, so this is not always on option. > > > > 4. Multiple middleware > > > > Though it may complicate your stack, it's sometimes good to mix > middleware > > tools. For example do some work on low-code level, and some in Camel > code. > > Maybe you don't need such difficult use cases in your code anymore when > you > > combine Camel with other middleware. There are Camel based platforms > > (Syndesis, Dovetail, Assimbly Gateway) or non-camel based (Apache NiFi, > > Apache Hop, Apache Kafka). Such middleware complement each other well. > > > > 5. Contribute > > > > Of course, the best way to make open source project better, is to deep > > dive and contribute yourself by code or documentation. > > https://camel.apache.org/community/contributing/ > > > > In open source your are the driver. Rock on. > > > > Raymond > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2022 at 8:47 AM Bert Speckels <bert.speck...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Thank you for clarification. > >> > >> Documentation about Camel Blueprint always reads only as an XML version > of > >> the Java DSL, which I don't particularly like. Maybe this is not > entirely > >> correct, but all blueprint documentation is about camel routes as XML, > >> nothing about annotation based CDI (@Service + @Inject etc). Do I miss > >> something? > >> > >> The other obstacle is a MongoDB ORM library for OSGI (currently we use > >> Morphia). But that is of no concern to the Camel community ;-) > >> > >> All this disappoints me mainly because I actually think Camel and Karaf > >> are > >> perfect for our purpose ... for many use cases ... but in the end there > is > >> a lack of OSGI support for important frameworks/libraries. OSGI doesn't > >> seem to be popular in the Java community...otherwise there would be more > >> documentation and support here. I think OSGI is the best solution > between > >> microservices and monoliths, although I think Java is only partially > >> suitable for microservices, at least if you want to run 100+ camel > routes > >> as individual microservices. > >> > >> Please forgive me for using this mailing list for such general > >> "discussions" and sharing of experiences. I know: Normally, this mailing > >> list is about very specific error situations... > >> > >> With kind regards > >> Bert Speckels > >> > >> Nicolas Filotto <nfilo...@talend.com> schrieb am Mo., 5. Sept. 2022, > >> 17:17: > >> > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > Regarding camel-cdi, it has been deprecated in 2.x and removed in 3.x > >> > AFAIK now you are supposed to use camel-blueprint instead. > >> > Regarding camel-mongodb, it has been removed in 3.16.0 because we met > >> some > >> > problems when upgrading the version of the driver, if really needed > >> please > >> > create a Jira ticket in the Camel project, I will try to find a > >> solution to > >> > put it back. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Nicolas > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > *From:* Bert Speckels <bert.speck...@gmail.com> > >> > *Sent:* Monday, September 5, 2022 12:44 > >> > *To:* users@camel.apache.org <users@camel.apache.org> > >> > *Subject:* Re: Camel and OSGI support > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi Again > >> > > >> > In fact, I'm extremely frustrated now. So excuse me if I sound a > little > >> > rude at this point. Actually I'm not like that. But not much remains > of > >> the > >> > promising approach with Camel and Apache Karaf... similar to our first > >> > approach with Quarkus. > >> > > >> > So far I've only encountered obstacles trying to use the following in > >> > Karaf. > >> > > >> > CDI (most important) > >> > camel-cdi apparently no longer exists as an OSGI bundle and pax-cdi > >> alone > >> > is not enough, because CDI (injection) is mainly used when building > >> routes. > >> > As far as I understand, this is only possible with Camel-CDI. > >> > > >> > MongoDB > >> > Camel-mongo doesn't seem to exist either. It may be sufficient here to > >> > address the MongoDB driver directly, since we probably do not > >> necessarily > >> > need the Camel-specific MongoDB API. The only thing missing is a > >> suitable > >> > OR mapper with OSGI support. > >> > > >> > EndpointDSL > >> > camel-endpointsdsl does not support OSGI. However, there is an > >> alternative > >> > to this, although I don't really like concatenating configuration > >> > parameters in a string. > >> > > >> > It's extremely frustrating right now having to figure all of this out > >> > yourself. I just hope that one of you can explain to me that CDI still > >> > works with Camel and Karaf. > >> > > >> > WIth kind regards > >> > Bert. > >> > > >> > Am So., 4. Sept. 2022 um 15:42 Uhr schrieb Bert Speckels < > >> > bert.speck...@gmail.com>: > >> > > >> > > Hello there > >> > > > >> > > I'm a bit desperate at the moment: We're switching our Camel routes > >> (in a > >> > > monolith, Camel 3.14.2) to OSGI bundles (Apache Karaf and upgrade to > >> > Camel > >> > > 3.18.1). Unfortunately I have some difficulties with this. > >> > > > >> > > For one thing, I'm missing a few Camel features: Unfortunately, > >> > > "camel-endpointsdsl" doesn't exist as an OSGI feature/bundle, right? > >> > > Neither 3.14.2 nmor 3.18.1 has OSGI support for that. > >> > > > >> > > Also missing in Camel 3.18.1 is the OSGI support of MongoDB, which > >> still > >> > > exists in 3.14. > >> > > > >> > > Also using CDI is quite confusing for me. Aries, Blueprint, Pax CDI, > >> > > Camel-CDI... so many combinations... @Service, @OsgiServiceProvider, > >> > > @Inject, @Reference... so many annotations, some of which are > >> apparently > >> > > deprecated. Currently we are using weld in our monolith: > >> weld-se-shaded, > >> > > deltaspike-cdictrl-weld with Camel-CDI. > >> > > > >> > > Overall, many (all?) tutorials and examples seem to be very > outdated: > >> I > >> > > rarely find examples from 2020 or later. Apparently, even after > 2020, > >> so > >> > > much has changed at Camel. Maybe you can point me to one or the > other > >> > > problem where I can get current information: OSGI-Mongo-Support, > CDI, > >> > > camel-endopointsdsl... > >> > > > >> > > With kind regards > >> > > Bert Speckels > >> > > > >> > > >> > *As a recipient of an email from Talend, your contact personal data > will > >> > be on our systems. Please see our privacy notice. > >> > <https://www.talend.com/privacy/>* > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >
