> We cannot have any message loss in an active-active symmetric cluster, and that is why the HA requirement.
In that case you would have 2 pairs of HA brokers all in the same cluster so that when a primary fails the backup will activate and join the same cluster as the other primary. > Does the JMeter Performance Tests also have the same limitation without support of JMS 2’s Completion Listener? I believe the JMS samplers in JMeter use JMS 1.1 as the lowest common denominator for implementations so I don't believe it will support CompletionListeners. > Performance tuning use-case: Due to some restrictions I cannot go into the details of this. To be clear, I'm not asking for any details about the "business" use-case, just the messaging use-case (e.g. need to send X messages of Y size to Z JMS topics). > Specific testing methodology: We have only been using the ActiveMQ Classic Performance Module Maven plugin. And how specifically have you been using this module? I'm looking for details sufficient to reproduce the test you're performing (e.g. commands and parameters). Such details will help me understand your use-case better. > It looks like with the limitation of JMS 2’s CompletionListener feature that we need to find another tool to test with. For what it's worth, ActiveMQ Artemis ships with a set of performance tools [1]. > Performance goal: I need to be able to publish and consume about 10,000 1-megabyte messages per second during bursts or short periods where we could receive a lot of messages. Disk will almost certainly be your bottleneck in this situation. Here are a few challenges I can think of off the top of my head: - I'm not sure even the fastest NVMe SSDs on the market support 10,000 MB/s writes. Disks you might find in a vanilla data center or cloud provider might only support 400 MB/s writes. - Using HA is going to slow this down further since you'll either have to use a shared disk or replication. - By default any message over 100KiB will be treated as "large" and streamed to/from disk rather than being held completely in memory. This will be slower than "normal" messages. You can increase the "minLargeMessageSize" on the client and potentially increase the journal buffer size on the broker so that it will handle 1MB messages in memory, but that will require quite a large heap for your JVM. Are you absolutely sure you need to support this amount of data? Would it be possible, for example, to compress the data before you send it? You'd be trading CPU time for storage time, but the trade might be worth it. > Tuning strategy: I have been following this and making incremental changes and then retesting...There have been some Linux OS changes we have made, but the gains from those changes are marginal. Can you elaborate on what changes you've made and what effect those changes have had? The devil is in the details here. Justin [1] https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/perf-tools.html#performance-tools On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 9:32 AM William Crowell <wcrow...@perforce.com.invalid> wrote: > Justin, > > We are trying to do both (cluster with HA). We cannot have any message > loss in an active-active symmetric cluster, and that is why the HA > requirement. So, I believe we would need at least 2 groups with a live and > backup broker each for a total of 4 brokers. > > Does the JMeter Performance Tests also have the same limitation without > support of JMS 2’s Completion Listener? > https://activemq.apache.org/components/classic/documentation/jmeter-performance-tests > > Performance tuning use-case: Due to some restrictions I cannot go into the > details of this. > > Specific testing methodology: We have only been using the ActiveMQ Classic > Performance Module Maven plugin. It looks like with the limitation of JMS > 2’s CompletionListener feature that we need to find another tool to test > with. > > Performance goal: I need to be able to publish and consume about 10,000 > 1-megabyte messages per second during bursts or short periods where we > could receive a lot of messages. > > Observed performance: With a single broker we have seen about 950 > 1-megabyte messages per second. > > Tuning strategy: I have been following this and making incremental changes > and then retesting: > https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/perf-tuning.html > > There have been some Linux OS changes we have made, but the gains from > those changes are marginal. > > Regards, > > William Crowell > > From: Justin Bertram <jbert...@apache.org> > Date: Wednesday, March 19, 2025 at 10:15 AM > To: users@activemq.apache.org <users@activemq.apache.org> > Subject: Re: What HA Replication Policy Is For Active-Active Topology > > ...we have found that using one broker will not satisfy our throughput > requirements even with various tuning. > > Performance tuning can be something of a dark art. I'm curious about your > use-case, specific testing methodology, performance goals, observed > performance, and tuning strategy. > > > We have been using the ActiveMQ Classic Performance Module plugin to test > against Artemis. > > It's worth noting that the ActiveMQ Classic Performance Module doesn't > support JMS 2's CompletionListener feature which can increase performance > for JMS producers so depending on your use-case you may be missing out on > relatively low-hanging fruit. > > > We would like to setup an active-active symmetric cluster... > > That's no problem. For the simplest way to set this up refer to my previous > email [1] on this subject. > > If all you need is an active-active symmetric cluster I'm curious how HA > got brought into this discussion. It seemed previously like you were trying > to do both. > > > Justin > > [1] > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.apache.org%2Fthread%2Fgof2fkcdyt6mt8pxmdlovpmr6v5rg427&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303291176%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=i6f21jBcZWjDgfke%2FCo3vjPw1bnAjLk3MWrx6auhkNI%3D&reserved=0 > <https://lists.apache.org/thread/gof2fkcdyt6mt8pxmdlovpmr6v5rg427> > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 8:48 AM William Crowell > <wcrow...@perforce.com.invalid> wrote: > > > Justin, > > > > With our current infrastructure, we have found that using one broker will > > not satisfy our throughput requirements even with various tuning. We > have > > been using the ActiveMQ Classic Performance Module plugin to test against > > Artemis: > > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fclassic%2Fdocumentation%2Factivemq-classic-performance-module-users-manual&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303313798%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=shkDMkOHHch3DLvlltYWqockyfpnDF%2FT2dFfWCNov6o%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://activemq.apache.org/components/classic/documentation/activemq-classic-performance-module-users-manual > > > > > > We would like to setup an active-active symmetric cluster where all > > brokers are active primaries similar to what this diagram shows in Figure > > 16.2: > > > > > > > https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_amq/7.4/html/configuring_amq_broker/setting-up-broker-cluster-configuring#common-broker-cluster-topologies-configuring > > > > Regards, > > > > William Crowell > > > > From: Justin Bertram <jbert...@apache.org> > > Date: Wednesday, March 19, 2025 at 9:37 AM > > To: users@activemq.apache.org <users@activemq.apache.org> > > Subject: Re: What HA Replication Policy Is For Active-Active Topology > > I lost the plot somewhere along the way I think. What specifically is > your > > use-case? Why are you wanting multiple clusters? > > > > > > Justin > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 8:29 AM William Crowell > > <wcrow...@perforce.com.invalid> wrote: > > > > > Justin, > > > > > > So, you would definitely need one cluster with 2 brokers and another > > > cluster with at least one preferably two brokers as well? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > William Crowell > > > > > > From: Justin Bertram <jbert...@apache.org> > > > Date: Wednesday, March 19, 2025 at 9:25 AM > > > To: users@activemq.apache.org <users@activemq.apache.org> > > > Subject: Re: What HA Replication Policy Is For Active-Active Topology > > > > The HA piece only cares whether a cluster is defined and not > > necessarily > > > if it is a health cluster. > > > > > > To be clear, HA pairs use clustering mainly for discovery. In the case > of > > > shared storage this discovery allows the primary broker to inform Core > > > clients (including Core JMS clients) about the cluster topology so they > > > know where to connect in the case of a failure. > > > > > > > > > Justin > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 8:03 AM William Crowell > > > <wcrow...@perforce.com.invalid> wrote: > > > > > > > Vilius, > > > > > > > > Thank you for your reply. Can we do 2 broker clusters of 1 node each > > > with > > > > HA on top? The HA piece only cares whether a cluster is defined and > > not > > > > necessarily if it is a health cluster. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > William Crowell > > > > > > > > From: Vilius Šumskas <vilius.sums...@rivile.lt.INVALID> > > > > Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2025 at 8:23 AM > > > > To: users@activemq.apache.org <users@activemq.apache.org> > > > > Subject: RE: What HA Replication Policy Is For Active-Active Topology > > > > [You don't often get email from vilius.sums...@rivile.lt.invalid. > > Learn > > > > why this is important at > https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification > > ] > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > active/active deployment you are talking about in Artemis world is > just > > > > "group of brokers". It doesn't provide you HA by default, but two > > groups > > > > can be configured for HA. It's a little bit wasteful because you will > > > have > > > > to add 3-4 broker to satisfy your requirements, but generally it > works. > > > > > > > > I recommend reading RedHat's AMQ (which is based on Artemis) > clustering > > > > documentation at > > > > > > > > > > https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_amq/7.4/html/configuring_amq_broker/setting-up-broker-cluster-configuring#setting-up-broker-cluster-configuring > > > > . They have a little bit more information and some nice pictures to > > > > understand how Artemis clustering can be configured. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Vilius > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: William Crowell <wcrow...@perforce.com.INVALID> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2025 1:53 PM > > > > To: users@activemq.apache.org > > > > Subject: Re: What HA Replication Policy Is For Active-Active Topology > > > > > > > > Domenico, > > > > > > > > Hi. I require 2 brokers to be primary/active at the same time. The > > way > > > > the documentation is written it does not come out and say you can run > > > with > > > > that configuration; however, this statement leads you to believe that > > > > configuration is possible: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fartemis%2Fdocumentation%2Flatest%2Fclusters.html%23performance-considerations&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303323602%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0k7YN29HJOmFdb%2FYt9AIoG2lNRrRdrw2t7RYIeeUAiA%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/clusters.html#performance-considerations > > > > < > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fartemis%2Fdocumentation%2Flatest%2Fclusters.html%23performance-considerations&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303333341%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nyRwicRSTKgnwIUOechBeQFjAup6iWBFaEa%2B8iNQuqc%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/clusters.html#performance-considerations > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fartemis%2Fdocumentation%2Flatest%2Fclusters.html%23performance-considerations&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303344359%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wjC37WP91lCfrqWPRBNUUHwmQYX3LFN618MJoQ4t7VA%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/clusters.html#performance-considerations > > > > < > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fartemis%2Fdocumentation%2Flatest%2Fclusters.html%23performance-considerations&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303357015%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LFGx5VsCQqQvppDibm84iteR6PoTKoy%2FoFhl5EmYZeE%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/clusters.html#performance-considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fartemis%2Fdocumentation%2Flatest%2Fclusters.html%23performance-considerations&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303367686%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DYQS3l2q2Dfpi%2FJBx0YcqkDy7BpemyGq6MzBn%2FGEqw8%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/clusters.html#performance-considerations > > > > < > > > 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https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fartemis%2Fdocumentation%2Flatest%2Fclusters.html%23performance-considerations&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303386346%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=EALJERMTg%2B8EFDsRYBLu8L%2FYVjaA3k8kpH0FPaU3FdE%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/clusters.html#performance-considerations > > > > < > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fartemis%2Fdocumentation%2Flatest%2Fclusters.html%23performance-considerations&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303395932%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QNZtnz8U4jE7Tqitbpbucunt6DPy%2FbVYDwTJ%2BHIC258%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/clusters.html#performance-considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. “Start simple. Benchmark your use-case with a single broker > > first. > > > A > > > > single broker can handle millions of messages per second in certain > > > > use-cases. If you can’t meet your performance goal with a single > broker > > > > only then move to a clustered configuration. Only add complexity when > > > there > > > > is a clear benefit.” > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > William Crowell > > > > > > > > From: Domenico Francesco Bruscino <bruscin...@gmail.com> > > > > Date: Tuesday, March 18, 2025 at 6:15 AM > > > > To: users@activemq.apache.org <users@activemq.apache.org> > > > > Subject: Re: What HA Replication Policy Is For Active-Active Topology > > Hi > > > > William, > > > > > > > > the HA policies allow the system to continue functioning after > failure > > of > > > > one or more of the servers. They require at least 2 brokers to work. > > The > > > > first broker is active and the second broker waits for the first > broker > > > > failure to replace it reloading durable/persisted messages. In this > > way, > > > > the client connections can migrate from one server to another in > event > > of > > > > server failure so client applications can continue to operate. > > > > > > > > Can you clarify your expectations from an active/active deployment? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Domenico > > > > > > > > On Mon, 17 Mar 2025 at 16:22, William Crowell > > > > <wcrow...@perforce.com.invalid> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Good morning, > > > > > > > > > > It appears all HA policies are for active/passive setup. Are there > > > > > any for active/active? Does this exist? > > > > > > > > > > I was reading through: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fartemis%2Fdocumentation%2Flatest%2Fha&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303405312%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UCFvROnRFQNBFImKMEITTkmSfl8YWJ2qYComgiwLllw%3D&reserved=0 > <https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/documentation/latest/ha> > > < > 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https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Factivemq.apache.org%2Fcomponents%2Fartemis%2Fdocum&data=05%7C02%7CWCrowell%40perforce.com%7C15f27af50f6c46bc4bac08dd66f07d59%7C95b666d19a7549ab95a38969fbcdc08c%7C0%7C0%7C638779905303518876%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yyT6%2FhB8sB4nGGzTY%2BcxDQ19FF9Y7nprjNLG7ClCpEQ%3D&reserved=0 > <https://activemq.apache.org/components/artemis/docum>>> > > > > > entation/latest/ha.html#replication> > > > > > > > > > > For example, you have 2 Artemis brokers and you want them both to > be > > > > > active at the same time, and the data directories are separate. > > > > > > > > > > Would you just specify the following in broker.xml on both servers? > > > > > > > > > > <ha-policy> > > > > > <replication> > > > > > <primary/> > > > > > </replication> > > > > > </ha-policy> > > > > > > > > > > I looked through the examples here and could not find it (unless I > > > > > missed > > > > > it): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/activemq-artemis-examples/tree/main/examples > > > > > /features/ha > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > William Crowell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This e-mail may contain information that is privileged or > > > > > confidential. 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