David, You are a clear thinker. I am jealous. That should end that discussion. LOL
Jack On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:59:30 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dang, you must've gotten the New and Improved Super Java. You know the one > without any NullPointerExceptions. Where can I get a copy? > > > > > "Rosenberg, Leon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > 11/16/2004 05:46 AM > > Please respond to > "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > cc > > > > Subject AW: talking about paradigms > > > > > > > > Hi Eddie, > > thanx for your reply, I will put it in my poetry album, and reread eat, > each time I'm asking myself about the sense of the living... > > Sad, but my problems are rather in the real world, where the developers > aren't Jedi or whatever Knights, but a bunch of guys, with each of them > being neither as experienced as you are, nor as poetic as you are. > > This why I have only few alternatives: > make code review for any single change > create very strict coding standarts and still make code > review > ban inappropriate functionality > since options one and two affords more time than I have, we simply > banned EL from the project, and we do in fact have readable and more or > less standardise code, where each of 10 developers can jump in and > continue where another one just ended. > > And, taking in risk bringing in boredom in your life, there are NO > _pointers_ in java; if you don't believe me, try some books written by > java developers (i.e. Joshua Bloch, Effective Java Programming Language > Guide, > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201310058/qid=1100601935/ > sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0821267-8564865?v=glance&s=books) > > > > Regards > Leon > > > > Von: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 16. November 2004 03:26 > > An: Struts Users Mailing List > > Betreff: Re: talking about paradigms > > > > Leon, > > > > Being a developer is like ... being a Jedi Knight. You seek the good > and > > thrive on it, but are forever tempted by the dark side. Eventually, > you > > give in to it and learn why it's evil and then go back to the light. > That > > is, unless you're so enthralled by the dark side that you become > consumed > > by > > it. Such actions my well lead to one's demise though - especially if > a > > Skywalker is around. > > > > To put it different, it's like being a woodworker. The machines you > use > > are > > stupid and emotionless. They have guards in place for a reason. The > > woodworker can remove the guards because they're "in the way", but he > has > > nobody but himself to blame when he cuts his finger off. > > > > I've heard this argument too many times. "The language should ... " > > > > Yes, I realize that there are folks who'd probably kill themselves in > an > > afternoon if they were the woodworker above, but that's their > business. > > Some people like living on the edge and think it's cool to write > > obfuscated > > code. Their reward will be dismissal if they don't mend their ways > before > > someone comes along that can write clean implementations that people > can > > come behind and maintain. > > > > Shift responsibility to where it belongs - to the critter that has > grey > > matter keeping its skull from collapsing - the developer. Yes, yes, > make > > use of the tools a language gives you to write better, cleaner, more > > maintainable code ... but having the power to slit your wrists can > > actually > > come in handy sometimes. Pointer arithmetic (the one feature missing > from > > Java. Yes, java has pointers, and please don't bore me by trying to > prove > > otherwise :-) is the one feature I miss from the old "C days", and it > can > > be > > a very elegant solution to certain problems --- just like recursion > (which > > I > > try to use sparingly as well). > > > > Enough :-) I like power. Java has enough, and makes up for what it > > doesn't > > have by adding other cool functionality. In the end, it's the > > responsibility of the developer to do what's right. > > > > Peace All, > > > > Eddie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rosenberg, Leon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:44 AM > > Subject: AW: talking about paradigms > > > > > > > > > > > > No, but what about > > > > > > > > <c:out value="${library.books[25].page[5].title}" /> ? > > > > (not sure about the syntax). > > > whats the problem? > > > MVC usually allows 'read-only access to model' for the view > > > Also the question is, what you expose to the view. > > > If you are afraid that somebody will misuse the library entries - > > don't > > > expose them. > > > I suppose MVC was the reason for JSP EL not to allow arbitrary > method > > > invocations. But I'd love to have such anyway ;) > > > > > > >... > > > > And what about database access tags? > > > You mean the jstl tags? They are there for quick and dirty. > > > If you don't change anything in the database though, it still okay > to > > MVC. > > > If you don't want it, don't expose your database in the first place > ;) > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, that if you give a user the possibility to misuse your > > framework - he will. > > And EL gives jsps more power than a dumb view should have. And if your > > view isn't just layouting out the data, but performing nearly complex > > operations, it's not dumb anymore, and a smart view doesn't fit into > the > > MVC. > > > > If the user is allowed to break the paradigm he will. > > If you have an architecture, which is built on a paradigm (and any > good > > architecture is) you can't allow the developers to break the paradigm, > > or > > the architecture will stop working one day, without obvious reasons. > > It's probably why there are no pointers in java, even pointers adds > cool > > features to the language. > > > > Regards > > Leon > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > --- > > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > > Virus Database (VPS): 0447-0, 11/15/2004 > > Tested on: 11/15/2004 8:26:28 PM > > avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." ~Native Proverb~ "Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be crows." ~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
