> -----Original Message----- > From: Nail, Evan Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Good Points.. > > One thing I might add is that the Title mentioned J2EE w > Struts vs .Net and I don't think this is a fair comparison. > Struts has a steep learning curve but when used you have a > good MVC type model with all the benefits. >
Steep! Struts is much easier than Hibernate to learn. It is the web technology foundation JSP / JSF / Design Patterns / HTTP technology that is really hard for the beginner. Why is build to this way instead of that way? What is Model 2 architecture, plus all the other rigourmorale of server side Java and marketing people bundled together in a witch's brew. > IMHO (I'm also 98% J2EE) With .Net Out of the box, you wont > get all of the MVC like qualities and can create really messy > apps. If you want MVC you need to get one of their code > blocks www.microsoft.com/patterns . Need logging..you need > another code block, want good exception handling..another > code block. Once you add all these in, the learning curve > goes up for .Net . I see things being more equal at that > point. Go to apache and download logging, etc or go to > /patterns and download blocks..its roughly the same. You then > begin to rely on implementing good design patterns in either > app just like someone else mentioned. Interesting stuff. I was briefly looking at Mono Development book last night. The open source of .Net is way behind Java equivalent. What is the equivalent of Jakarta on .Net? If the Mono environment takes off on GNU / Linux / GNOME then we could see an avalanche of stuff written for C#/.Net/Mono in future. It is, however, a "big if". Only time will tell. > As far as the IDE, I've used VS for our few .Net apps and for > your first iteration on a page I haven't seen anything > faster. The widgets etc are fairly nice. Paging, Sorting etc > isn't for free but close. In my limited experience, when I > really need to get control of the object (i.e. change a grid > for example in a very customized way ) I end up pulling my > hair out. I end up using a repeater( a <c:forEach> type tag) > and at that point you're on level ground again. However I > expect when the next version of VS comes out ( wigby or > something like that) it will make binding etc even easier. WIth the MONO and GTK assembly(?) you can extend/subclass a GTK widget and create your UI. GTK/GNOME is definitely open source. I agree that a lot Visual tools outclass the SunONE stuff editing stuff that I saw in a J2EE training course. Too early to say "Yay" or "Nay" on whether .NEt /MONO will grab the developer mindshare. > > I would be interested to hear opinions regarding gui apps and > the choice of product if people think RIA can help in this area etc. > The trouble with RIA is that there is no universal defacto browser technology. There are lots of interesting solutions for rich functionality. My gut feeling it is gooing to take a twentieth-first century equivalent of Netscape and Microsoft to really push forward a next generation [XML/XSLT/ T(x)] browser Where T(x) stands for some new technology. Hint substitute T(x) for SVG, XUL, Flex, or whatever you think it is going happen. > Burke > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:46 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET > > > As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two > reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the > two for a moment and just look at > .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on > it's own. > Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a > fine piece of work. SO FAR it has proven to be relatively > stable and even secure, no > worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways. > > As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual > Studio.Net much, I prefer being "closer to the metal", so to > speak (in this case, that means doing mostly command line > work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java development). > I think you do get the "trained monkey symdrome" to a degree > when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true. > > Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE. > > In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent > solution. Yes, > there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be > worried about > security and what might be found down the road (so far so > good though). > Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on. > > Now, in terms of comparisons... > > J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor > support. J2EE > has I think more of a community around it and more projects > that can solve a > multitide of problems. I think it is a bit easier and more > natural to > design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with > .Net. I think .Net wins in tool maturity because I've yet to > see anything that matches VS.Net overall (this is a highly > debateable point to be sure). J2EE has had > more time to get the kinks worked out and it's currently a > very mature > platform (although .Net out of the gate was considerably > further along than Java was at the start, J2EE is still ahead). > > .Net gives you some flexibility in terms of language support, > although I > think this is a bit overrated because even in the .Net shots > I'm aware of they have generally standardized on one language > or another (usually C#). True, there are some other language > implemented in the JVM, but generally speaking it's a Java-only world. > > J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed > applications, although I will say that my opinion is that > even today with all the strides > that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a > superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues > aside, which aren't small concerns > in some cases). > > Overall, anyone that says J2EE is FAR superior to .Net, or > anyone that says the opposite, is *probably* a zealot one way > or the other and not really worth listening to. Anyone with > an objective opinion who doesn't let their > hatred of Redmond get in the way will generally say that the > two are at > least comperable in most ways. Hate MS all you want, but > they really have done a great engineering job with .Net... > Whether it's better than J2EE is vertainly up for debate (my > opinion: I still give the Jave world the nod, but not by a > huge margin). > > Frank W. Zammetti > Founder and Chief Software Architect > Omnytex Technologies > www.omnytex.com > > > > > > >From: Vic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET > >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:10:30 -0500 > > > > > >And of course... there's a little thing could profit. > >Keep your hands of my stash. W/ any O/S, I get better > quality and keep more > >of my penies, important for profesional developers. > > > >But specificaly, I have not used VB or C# Express, so it's > hard for me to >compare detials. It be great to hear from > somone who deplpyed both in > >production. > > > > > >.V > > > > > >Jim Barrows wrote: > >> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anders Jacobsen > >>>Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:01 PM > >>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>Subject: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET > >>> > >>> > >>>Hi > >>> > >>>I think this place would be a good place to good some > colored ;) comments > >>>on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts > and the same > >>>implemented with ASP.NET. > >>> > >>>Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I > hope I could >>>find some people who preferable had > experience with both frameworks. > >>> > >>>I know itīs hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real > >>>developers would be of great value. The main functionality > of the web > >>>application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like. > >> > >> > >>Well... let's start off with the fact that MS is NOT > secure. If security >>is an issue, then MS's record to date > is very worrisome. Yes, they've >>cleaned up their act a > bit... however their problems are very deep in the > >>fundamental way they do things. You can find some good discussions > >>elsewhere. > >> > >>Engineering would be next. In general the J2EE world's > core tends to be >>better engineered. EJB being something of > an exception, depending on who > >>you talk to. I've seen more discussions of best practices > and patterns on > >>J2EE lists then I have on .Net lists. This may be more > because I haven't >>chosen high quality lists. This may > also be due to the higher incidence > >>of trained monkey's in the MS world then software engineered. > >> > >>Trained monkey's would be next. MS seems to attract > developers who don't >>have any true understanding of how > things work. I'm not sure why. It >>might be because > they've made it so point and click that no one really > >>understands what's going on, and even if they did they > might not be able >>to do anything about it. I've seen far > more "How do I show 1,000 items in > >>a drop down list box?" type questions on MS lists then I > have on Java > >>lists. THe few I have seen, have all come from MS > developers. MS has > >>focused on providing cheap easy solutions, which is fine > for the single >>computer model the has dominated so much of > MS's history. There are very > >>few cheap and easy solutions when developing enterprise > wide software. > >> > >>Last, and to a large degree, the most important is choice. > I don't have >>to use Sun's VM. I don't have to use > implementation of the JSP/Servlet >>spec. I don't have to > use IBM's implementation either. I'm not tied to a > >>database (ODBC is _NOT_ what I would call good database > independance) > >>vendor. I'm not tied to an OS Vendor, which means I'm not > tied to a > >>hardware platform. You can't run .Net on Sun, or AS400's > or any hardware >>other then Intel. All of this means one > thing... I can customize any Java > >>based solution to fit any need. > >> > >> > >>>Thanks in regards > >>>Anders > >>> > >>> ==////== -- Peter Pilgrim Operations/IT - Credit Suisse First Boston, 10 South Colonnade, London E14 4QJ, United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0)207 883 4447 ============================================================================== This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you received this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this message was misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or privilege. CSFB retains and monitors electronic communications sent through its network. Instructions transmitted over this system are not binding on CSFB until they are confirmed by us. Message transmission is not guaranteed to be secure. ============================================================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
