Hi, I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry as Jingsong mentioned. Besides, we still need to investigate how http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive.
Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but complementary. Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we are seeking today is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions and interactions. A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list but can't solve the problems mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful discussion in Slack can also be searchable. I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink and keep this thread focused on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as their forum. Best, Jark [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <mart...@ververica.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best > experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. > More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to use > Slack. > > Best regards, > > Martijn > > On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <myas...@live.com> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, > > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be > > leveraged easily. > > > > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack > > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own > slack > > workspace. > > > > Best > > Yun Tang > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 > > *To:* Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > > *Cc:* dev <d...@flink.apache.org>; user <user@flink.apache.org> > > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > > > > Hi all, > > > > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid > > community. [1] > > > > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users > > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack > channel. > > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace > > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. > > > > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new > > community > > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately, > > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members, > > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full > > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This > lack > > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > > > > > There is a workaround in place ( > > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send > an > > email to druid-u...@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack > > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to > entry, > > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy > > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor > > wishes to display their email address in a public forum. > > > > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 > > > > Best, > > Jingsong > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and > then > > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything > > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? > > >> > > > > > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more > about > > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information > > easier > > > to find. > > > > > > Thank you~ > > > > > > Xintong Song > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kna...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people > have > > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel. > > >> > > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing > list. > > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and > > search > > >> is easier. > > >> > > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and > then > > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything > > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < > > >> tonysong...@gmail.com>: > > >> > > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" > > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and > on > > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months. > > >>> > > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with > > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and > > keeping > > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding > bots, > > etc. > > >>> > > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency > when > > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would > > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that > perspective, > > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists. > > >>> > > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. > I > > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and > > easy to > > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. > I'm > > not > > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they > are > > not > > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack. > > >>> > > >>> Thank you~ > > >>> > > >>> Xintong Song > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/ > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kna...@apache.org> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with > Timo > > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, > and > > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I > > definitely see > > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are > > >>>> intimidated. > > >>>> > > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. > This > > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful > > discussion > > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is > > easier > > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more > sense > > to > > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant > > than a > > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the > > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it > > on an > > >>>> ASF machine. [1] > > >>>> > > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated > > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have > > more > > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using > > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally > > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink. If we go for > > Slack, > > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, > we > > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself. > > >>>> > > >>>> Cheers, > > >>>> > > >>>> Konstantin > > >>>> > > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther < > > >>>> twal...@apache.org>: > > >>>> > > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink > > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for > > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk > > channel of > > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It > could > > also > > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked > > questions. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design > > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should > definitely > > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might > not > > want > > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their > > mailbox > > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company > > setting it > > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing > > lists and > > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an > > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. > It > > might > > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter > > would > > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is > > actually > > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Regards, > > >>>>> Timo > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> for sharing the > > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for > discussions > > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can > > reach out > > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a > > paid > > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took > me > > about > > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> David > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger < > rmetz...@apache.org> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website > for > > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1) > > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they > > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined. > > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) > > that > > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, > > but it'll > > >>>>>> work. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> (1) > https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger < > metrob...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the > ASF > > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal: > > >>>>>>> > https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel > > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser < > > >>>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of > > Slack, > > >>>>>>>> you can > > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a > > >>>>>>>> committer. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger < > metrob...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the > > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong! > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of > > using > > >>>>>>>> the ASF > > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance? > > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained > forever, > > >>>>>>>> and quite > > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance. > > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that > > we > > >>>>>>>> could > > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort > > into > > >>>>>>>> it, on a > > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis. > > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for > > >>>>>>>> developer > > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat. > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" > and > > >>>>>>>> "Getting > > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground > > >>>>>>>> truth tools" > > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster > > >>>>>>>> communication, but > > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to > > >>>>>>>> DMs) > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and > > >>>>>>>> google-indexable. > > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining > > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. > > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find > > some > > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing > > tool. > > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some > bad > > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the > > >>>>>>>> advanced > > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to > > >>>>>>>> find that > > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information. > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would > > >>>>>>>> suggest > > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all > > >>>>>>>> important > > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we > > >>>>>>>> get the > > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for > > users > > >>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to > > >>>>>>>> developers, > > >>>>>>>> > indexing). > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song < > > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack > for > > >>>>>>>> dev > > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to > the > > >>>>>>>> MLs. > > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies > > >>>>>>>> what people > > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do. > > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I > > think > > >>>>>>>> that also > > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a > > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a > > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of > > >>>>>>>> conduct. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major > concern > > >>>>>>>> is that, we > > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from > > >>>>>>>> different users, > > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching > historical > > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the > > >>>>>>>> archivability and > > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but > > >>>>>>>> none of them > > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 > arguments. > > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more > > >>>>>>>> efficient? By > > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and > > >>>>>>>> helpers with > > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video > > calls, > > >>>>>>>> etc. > > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as > David > > >>>>>>>> mentioned.) > > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions > on > > >>>>>>>> MLs are > > >>>>>>>> >> now > > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put > that > > >>>>>>>> into the > > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and > > >>>>>>>> initiate > > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs. > > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China > > >>>>>>>> community. > > >>>>>>>> >> We > > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be > less, > > >>>>>>>> I didn't > > >>>>>>>> >> do > > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm > > >>>>>>>> really > > >>>>>>>> >> excited > > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users > & > > >>>>>>>> users than > > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, > > sharing > > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations > > >>>>>>>> and solving > > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if > not > > >>>>>>>> proactively > > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more > > >>>>>>>> active compared > > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement > of > > >>>>>>>> interaction > > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly > > >>>>>>>> asked & > > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit > > of a > > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can > > >>>>>>>> bring such > > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention > > >>>>>>>> from the > > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & > David. > > >>>>>>>> I think > > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~ > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li < > > >>>>>>>> jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up > their > > >>>>>>>> slack > > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], > etc. > > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to > communicate > > >>>>>>>> back and > > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether > there > > >>>>>>>> are > > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, > > to > > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. > > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the > mailing > > >>>>>>>> list and > > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to > > do). > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < > > >>>>>>>> dander...@apache.org> > > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a > > >>>>>>>> result I get a > > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do > > it > > >>>>>>>> on a > > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack > > >>>>>>>> overflow > > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary > > >>>>>>>> expertise > > >>>>>>>> >> takes > > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the > > collective > > >>>>>>>> energy > > >>>>>>>> >> to do > > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow > would > > >>>>>>>> be a good > > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to > > >>>>>>>> request help > > >>>>>>>> >> from > > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the > > >>>>>>>> existing > > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very > > >>>>>>>> interesting cases > > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out > > >>>>>>>> what's going > > >>>>>>>> >> on. > > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are > > >>>>>>>> unusual, or > > >>>>>>>> >> when a > > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these > > circumstances, > > >>>>>>>> something > > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack > > overflow. > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > David > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin < > > >>>>>>>> becket....@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in > the > > >>>>>>>> previous > > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having > a > > >>>>>>>> slack > > >>>>>>>> >> channel > > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this > > >>>>>>>> topic is > > >>>>>>>> >> raised > > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. > > >>>>>>>> Although it has > > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that > > for > > >>>>>>>> people > > >>>>>>>> >> who > > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, > a > > >>>>>>>> lot of > > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which > leaves > > >>>>>>>> no public > > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the > > Flink > > >>>>>>>> PMC, some > > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the > > >>>>>>>> suggestions of > > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are > good > > >>>>>>>> starting > > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In > the > > >>>>>>>> worst > > >>>>>>>> >> case, we > > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are > right > > >>>>>>>> now. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < > > >>>>>>>> mart...@ververica.com > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results > > are > > >>>>>>>> not > > >>>>>>>> >> indexed > > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to > Slack > > >>>>>>>> content > > >>>>>>>> >> unless > > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space > has > > >>>>>>>> progressed > > >>>>>>>> >> and > > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to > > >>>>>>>> users. There > > >>>>>>>> >> are > > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow > > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also > > >>>>>>>> >> see > > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing > > >>>>>>>> well-known > > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That > can > > >>>>>>>> cause a > > >>>>>>>> >> lot > > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to > > establish > > >>>>>>>> a set of > > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski < > > >>>>>>>> pnowoj...@apache.org> > > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. > IMO > > >>>>>>>> it works > > >>>>>>>> >> > great as > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but > > it's > > >>>>>>>> not > > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, > as > > >>>>>>>> long as > > >>>>>>>> >> the > > >>>>>>>> >> > result > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to > JIRA/mailing > > >>>>>>>> list/design > > >>>>>>>> >> > doc. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to > > >>>>>>>> achieve. In > > >>>>>>>> >> the > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same > > >>>>>>>> questions over, > > >>>>>>>> >> > and > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a > > link > > >>>>>>>> to the > > >>>>>>>> >> > previous > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack > space/channel > > >>>>>>>> for the > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such > > channels > > >>>>>>>> for the > > >>>>>>>> >> > users. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for > example, > > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the > > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest > > >>>>>>>> >> > at top) > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit > our > > >>>>>>>> use case > > >>>>>>>> >> much > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song < > > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a): > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink > slack > > >>>>>>>> workspace > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is > > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly* > > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which > > >>>>>>>> are 4 years > > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking > > >>>>>>>> questions about > > >>>>>>>> >> > whether > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also > > >>>>>>>> find a > > >>>>>>>> >> recent > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative > > >>>>>>>> >> communication > > >>>>>>>> >> > channels > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite > open > > >>>>>>>> to having > > >>>>>>>> >> such > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well > for > > >>>>>>>> many > > >>>>>>>> >> projects > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change > > during > > >>>>>>>> the past > > >>>>>>>> >> 4 > > >>>>>>>> >> > years. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and > > PMC > > >>>>>>>> members, > > >>>>>>>> >> > and even > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. > > >>>>>>>> That also > > >>>>>>>> >> > means more > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous > > >>>>>>>> discussion. > > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF > workspace, > > >>>>>>>> here we are > > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. > > And > > >>>>>>>> instead > > >>>>>>>> >> of > > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving* > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a > > Slack > > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace > > >>>>>>>> >> > as an > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your > previous > > >>>>>>>> -1 [1]. > > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I > > >>>>>>>> overlooked > > >>>>>>>> >> > anything, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292 > > > > >>>>>>>> the ASF > > >>>>>>>> >> Slack > > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into > > >>>>>>>> rather > > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF > > service. > > >>>>>>>> If anyone > > >>>>>>>> >> > can > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, > > JIRA > > >>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub. > > >>>>>>>> >> > All of > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the > slack > > >>>>>>>> channel > > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a > > >>>>>>>> committer. This > > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much > > >>>>>>>> rather > > >>>>>>>> >> prefer > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole > > >>>>>>>> community. I'll > > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1] > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2] > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3] > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4] > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5] > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler < > > >>>>>>>> >> ches...@apache.org > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over > > the > > >>>>>>>> years and > > >>>>>>>> >> > was > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would > > >>>>>>>> invalidate the > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on > it. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide > > >>>>>>>> anyway, but > > >>>>>>>> >> the > > >>>>>>>> >> > project > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to > the > > >>>>>>>> mailing > > >>>>>>>> >> list. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are > > >>>>>>>> surprised > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love > to > > >>>>>>>> use Slack. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source > > >>>>>>>> communities > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking > > >>>>>>>> people for > > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A > but > > >>>>>>>> also a > > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community > > >>>>>>>> have more > > >>>>>>>> >> social > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, > > and > > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news channel > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and > I > > >>>>>>>> can help > > >>>>>>>> >> set > > >>>>>>>> >> > up the > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song < > > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an > > Apache > > >>>>>>>> Flink > > >>>>>>>> >> slack > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time > > >>>>>>>> communication > > >>>>>>>> >> > through > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real > > time > > >>>>>>>> >> computing, > > >>>>>>>> >> > should > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, > > >>>>>>>> especially > > >>>>>>>> >> for > > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more > > >>>>>>>> contributors > > >>>>>>>> >> from > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be > > >>>>>>>> good to > > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. > > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd > > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is > maintained > > >>>>>>>> by the > > >>>>>>>> >> Flink > > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are > less > > >>>>>>>> likely > > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file > > >>>>>>>> transmissions > > >>>>>>>> >> > that help > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, > > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun, > > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.). > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an > extension > > >>>>>>>> rather > > >>>>>>>> >> than a > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community > members > > >>>>>>>> should > > >>>>>>>> >> still > > >>>>>>>> >> > be > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing > > >>>>>>>> lists. That > > >>>>>>>> >> means: > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important > > >>>>>>>> opinions > > >>>>>>>> >> should > > >>>>>>>> >> > be > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, > > >>>>>>>> according to > > >>>>>>>> >> the > > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it > > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc > > >>>>>>>> questions on > > >>>>>>>> >> > slack. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow > long) > > >>>>>>>> should be > > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack > for a > > >>>>>>>> real time > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged > need > > >>>>>>>> to be > > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all > > >>>>>>>> contributors are > > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier > > >>>>>>>> only when > > >>>>>>>> >> all > > >>>>>>>> >> > the > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that > people > > >>>>>>>> should not > > >>>>>>>> >> > expect > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often > > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is > > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search > > >>>>>>>> among them. > > >>>>>>>> >> > There are > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. > As > > >>>>>>>> a first > > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things > back > > >>>>>>>> to the > > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly > reflected > > >>>>>>>> back to > > >>>>>>>> >> the > > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and > > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source > projects > > >>>>>>>> (Apache > > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not) > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], > > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3], > > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4] > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we > > >>>>>>>> would need > > >>>>>>>> >> an > > >>>>>>>> >> > official > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But > before > > >>>>>>>> we get to > > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4] > > >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable > > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable > > >> https://github.com/knaufk > > >> > > > > > >
