Well said, Roland! My sentiments as well. The dev team is putting a lot of reliance on the users to do a lot of testing, and we will probably keep finding bugs, which the team will jump on. They deserve a lot of respect. A local Santa Barbara philosopher said: "I am not perfect, but parts of me are excellent!" That is the case with livecode.
Great job, guys! Best, Bill William Prothero http://es.earthednet.org > On Feb 6, 2016, at 4:14 AM, Roland Huettmann <roland.huettm...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > The contribution of Dr. Hawkins to this subject the other has made me think > a lot. > > I am not sure if I have that kind of competency to even write a reply. But > finally I decided to contribute some of my reflection. > > Though I know from many many years of experience with hundreds of > developers that for mission-critical applications and timely deliveries to > customers quality of service is vital.There is no "pardon" from the > customers side when failures to deliver quality become a frequent issue. > And in such projects, it would not have been possible so far using LiveCode > as a front-end, and even less using it as a back-end. Unfortunately. > > And I really love LiveCode and support wherever I can. > > Dr. Hawkins arguments - in my humble opinion - have a valid side, while at > the same time to me they seem narrowed down to a limited personal domain. > LiveCode can not just stay where it was 2 or 3 years ago, or 10 years ago, > just to be "stable". It is not made to serve one person, or just one group, > or one company. It would be very easy if that were the case. > > For example, without native Unicode support - I would no longer be > interested, and the world-wide market would not be as well. > > And there is always just the possibility to stick and stay with an older > version. I can still use XP on Windows, or Windows 95. I can still turn on > my old first Macintosh from 1985. And it has done things amazingly well. I > could write letters, compute Excel sheets and do all kinds of funny things. > We have had big eyes in those days. > > But I am also sometimes thinking, for what am I spending hours and hours, > days and days, trying to figure out what the hack is happening with one or > the other implementation. For example, since years I am failing using the > Geometry Manager. First it seems to work fine. Then suddenly controls > disappear and end up somewhere in space. So, I decided not using it, but it > is still there for other people to develop a headache. Would it not be > wiser to completely remove it until there is a stable and reliable version? > > Just today I tested the revBrowserCef again. Rather than having a buggy > browser instance, I would rather not have one at all. On my Windows system > (and the business world is Windows) it just makes even typing into the > message box almost not possible - so much the browser instance is slowing > down other work. Other functions also do not work. But writing another Bug > report? There will be a new browser in 8. So, better wait... do not bother > the team with reports for 6, 7 ... > > Again, from my experience, what LiveCode is trying to achieve is a huge > vision, and a HUGE effort - and again thinking of our own experiences with > much larger groups of developers - it is a pain in the ... to have to > support so many different systems, different browsers, different use-case > for the whole world. > > Is it not just TOOOO much? > > In a well paid professional set-up - and money plays a big role here - we > had teams of testers with 10-12 people doing nothing but TESTING. Then you > need specialists for each platform. You need to set up various machines > with different flavors of operating systems. You need use-cases to test, > test-stacks, test environments - testing is a "science" in itself. And it > is not for free.. I know a testing company in France - they have all models > of all smart phones to test applications running on all those devices. They > physically have ALL of them. They offer nothing but testing. > > With a small team reaching the end of such tunnel - it is my feeling, my > impression that it is so - will there ever be such end? > > 100,000 dollars is nothing. 500,000 dollars is nothing. Bigger companies > spend millions and millions - and fail often enough. I have seen it here in > Switzerland with insurance companies, banks, government - over 100 million > dollars lost on a software project !!! And you read about such failed > project every other day. > > ( htp:// > www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Bund-stoppt-Insieme--ueber-100-Millionen-verloren/story/28910726 > ) > > It is highly AMAZING that such a small team is working day and night and > sweating to get things out and done trying to accomplish something that > would need hundreds of developers usually. And I do not see hundreds of > developers even participating in this list. > > I have more than respect !!! > > Yes - for mission critical applications of industrial strength it is an > open question. > > I say to myself that I will patiently wait for the Version 8 to become > stable enough - even if it takes a year from now and does not do everything > planned. I have all the understanding for such problems based on many years > of experience with teams of developers. > > It is impossible to know in advance all those hurdles and shortcomings in > software development. What I thought my own teams could do in 6 months > always took us a year and even more than that to really finish up. Even > using best practice and highly competent people it was not possible to > seriously know where the development will take us to. > > From time to time we all have the right getting upset thinking "what am I > doing here?". But this team deserves more patience and more support from > all sides and from everywhere. Much much more. > > When we demand more resources, more this and more that - who is thinking > how such demand could be fulfilled - if not in an environment which is very > healthy being fully funded? But 100 dollars here, or there... ? (I do not > know LiveCodes monthly revenue, but I suspect it is not that big...) > > --- > > My rule of thumb: Make a good estimation of how much time you need for your > project. Think about it deeply. Use all kinds of techniques to come to a > viable conclusion. Be 100% sure that you will do it during that period of > time. And then multiply such assessment with the factor of 4. > > It always worked. ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On 6 February 2016 at 04:14, Kay C Lan <lan.kc.macm...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> At first, I've got to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed... but then >> discovered I hadn't updated at all. >> >> I normally always use the link provided to grab the download but for some >> reason this time I just used the 'Check for Updates' in the Help menu. I >> should have realised something was up when the Installer didn't ask me >> where I wanted to Install to - I always install to My Applications folder >> not the All User Application folder. >> >> I don't see a need to clutter the QCC, just be aware that at least on OS X >> dp 13 the Check for Updates points to the wrong file and you are better off >> grabbing the dp 14 file directly. >> >> Having got dp14... wow, awesome, the changes are immediately apparent. The >> Dictionary is useable! It's like Christmas has come again. >> >> So thankful for those many talented people at the matriarchal maritime >> transportation vessel establishment (not wishing to offend Peter ;-) who >> have spent so much time learning impenetrable, cryptic and downright >> cantankerous foreign languages (C++, Objective C, Apple iOS app submission >> requirements...) so that I don't have to and all they ask in return is that >> any time I've got a bit of a grumble is click a Bookmark and fill out an >> online form. Seems terribly one sided, but OK. >> _______________________________________________ >> use-livecode mailing list >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your >> subscription preferences: >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode >> > _______________________________________________ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode _______________________________________________ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
