On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 11:23 -0500, Scott Lavender wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Ralf Mardorf > <[email protected]> wrote: > On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 14:10 -0500, Scott Lavender wrote: > > > [snip] > > This is not a rhetorical question. I, as Ubuntu Studio > project lead, > > would like to include it. If you can provide a tenable > method to > > include the -rt kernel in the Ubuntu Studio ISO image I > would like to > > implement it. > > > [snip] > > Hi Scott :) > > I'm not sure, if I do understand the problem. > > Does Ubuntu need the same vanilla kernel version for different > kind of > kernels, e.g. to provide packages for proprietary graphic > modules? > If so, IMO it's not needed to make the multimedia distro full > compatible > with a regular Ubuntu. > > * snip * > > I think you are missing the point. > > It does not matter _why_ certain kernels are maintained and available > in the repositories. It only matters _that_ the decision was made. > > The only kernels I can include within a Ubuntu Studio ISO image are > the kernels available from the official Ubuntu archives. > > Furthermore, I do not decide which kernels may be included in the > archives. That ultimate decision is made by others, although I may > provide some small influence on it. This is an example of when I > mentioned "working within the Ubuntu framework". > > To summarize: Others control which kernels are available and > maintained in the archives and I get to select from the available > kernels which one to include in the Ubuntu Studio ISO image. > > To state what is "needed" or "required" or "worthless without" for > multimedia production is irrelevant. I say again, to build a Ubuntu > Studio ISO image within the Ubuntu framework I must choose from the > available kernels in the repositories, of which I wield extremely > limited influence in deciding which are to be available. > > > > Multimedia producer just need a kernel-rt and a package > including the > headers to compile e.g. drivers for graphics. > > For my needs the kernel-rt doesn't provide hard enough > real-time, but > the kernel-rt is a compromise that might enable some audio > productions. > > You might wish to compare a C64, Atari ST or stand alone > sequencer from > the eighties with a kernel-rt and a kernel without rt-patch > used by a > good classical or jazz musician. There still is too much > jitter, but the > kernel-rt for sure will be the first kernel, that might be > able to get > the knack of it. > > The kernel-rt is the best we do have for Linux, hence it's > invalid to > use a less good kernel, as long as even the kernel-rt isn't > able to do > hard real-time. > > So, if there should be a rule for Ubuntu, that all patched > kernels has > to base on the same vanilla version, which is a good thought, > it's not > good for multimedia productions. > > There are coders who program the rt-patch, to make Linux > better and > better, it's not smart if a multimedia distro tries to be > smarter by not > using a kernel-rt, because it shouldn't be needed. > > The kernel-rt is needed and there should be no rule not to use > it. > > Btw. to make the issue harder. It's not only that there isn't > a rt-patch > for every vanilla kernel, sometimes a current > rt-patch-kernel-combination can be bad, so that we need to > keep older > rt-patched kernels. Sometimes it's not possible to keep > 'things' that > are available by a generic kernel of the same vanilla version, > when > using the rt-patch, but there's no need to keep all kernel > features for > real-time audio productions. > > > * snip * > > No one is suggesting that the -rt kernel is not a good thing or that > is not to be preferred over other kernels. However, stating that the > -rt kernel is needed or multimedia production is worthless without it > is not going to change the fact that the -rt kernel will not be > included in an Ubuntu Studio ISO image for the reasons stated above. > > Furthermore, no one is stating that you should not use the -rt kernel. > Quite the contrary, it is almost required for laptop users with > firewire audio interfaces and we have made it very clear that we will > make the -rt kernel available via a PPA. > > Again, this is not our choice to include a kernel other than the -rt > kernel released in Ubuntu Studio. It is a necessity dictated by what > is available in the repositories. > > Lastly, I am curious to which hardware you are using if you find that > the -rt kernel is not hard time enough for your needs.
Today a PC isn't able to do hard real-time. As I've written before, my machine is a AMD 2.1 GHz dual-core, I've got two Envy24 based PCI sound cards and in addition I'm not using any USB device, even mouse and keyboard are PS/2. Hard real-time only is possible on computers were you can control the hardware directly, e.g. a C64 or Atari ST, on a modern PC you only have the choice to select the lesser of the two evils, e.g. avoid USB-MIDI, but use PCI-MIDI, to get less jitter, anyway, on a PC you always will get jitter. > > > The need for hard real-time is an exceptional case, not only > for > multimedia production, there are other real-time patches, e.g. > for the > Enhanced Machine Controller project. > Some people and you might be fine with a non-real-time patched > kernel, > but most professional studios aren't even fine with the > kernel-rt or on > Windows ASIO, resp. ASIO + Nuendo on some machines should be > near to > eighties hard real-time. > > * snip * > > I would argue that Ubuntu Studio is not for a professional studio. > > Despite what others might argue or what various documentation might > say, I believe the Ubuntu Studio is NOT for professional use in a > recording studio. > > In my opinion, much greater control would be required to tailor > kernels, applications, and system systems. A company like Indamixx > and their OS, Transmission 4.0, would be an example. > http://www.indamixx.com/indamixx-iso-download.html Indamixx is using 64 Studio, the distro I'm using to produce music. > > To be direct, I would first remove Pulse Audio, stop shipping all > graphical and video applications, and use a lighter desktop to > maximize performance for starters. Additional changes would be > required as well, there were just the first I could think of. > > Before some ask why isn't this done already (especially removing Pulse > Audio), we lack the developer resources to handle it and most of our > users most likely use the same machine for normal day-to-day uses > (i.e. internet, email, etc). I'm using email etc. with 64 Studio (based on Ubuntu) too and I'm not missing PulseAudio when mailing etc.. Anyway, on my Suse PulseAudio is installed it's a PITA, but has got no influence to audio productions, PulseAudio for me is a PITA just for day-to-day use. Unfortunately until now I'm unable to use Ubuntu Studio too. Startup is interrupted when I try to boot the kernel-rt from the repositories, I also had an issue with a self build kernel-rt, but I can't remember it now, as I've written before, as soon as possible I'll try again to boot and build several kernel-rt. > > > Cheers! > > > Ralf > > > > I hope you find this information useful. It is. > > Regards, > ScottL Cheers! Ralf -- Ubuntu-Studio-users mailing list [email protected] Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
