Hi Otto, On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 09:59:46PM -0700, Otto Kekäläinen wrote: > Hi!
> Should I maybe re-post this on some other mailing list or on > https://discourse.ubuntu.com/? Did you see this reply from Lena, which was waiting for input? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2024-September/043133.html > I did notice there was some people commenting the topic in the news > article https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ubuntu-25.04-Maybe-MariaDB, > which in turn was mentioned in > https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-weekly-newsletter-issue-858/48085). > I was hoping some Ubuntu community members (in particular those who > are not Canonical staff) would share some views here so we could see > what is the general sentiment. Or has everyone but WordPress users > fully migrated to PostgreSQL so that the topic of MySQL vs MariaDB is > no longer of broad interest? ;-) > > On Thu, 19 Sept 2024 at 16:34, Otto Kekäläinen <o...@ubuntu.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Ubuntu devs, > > > > The MariaDB Server, a fork of MySQL created in response to it being > > acquired by Oracle, has been the default MySQL variant in Debian since > > 2016. Starting from Debian 9 "Stretch" in 2017, MariaDB has been the > > only MySQL variant in stable Debian releases. The situation has been > > similar in the Fedora and SuSE ecosystems — currently Ubuntu is the > > only major Linux distribution that ships Oracle MySQL at all. > > > > I think it is now time for Ubuntu to follow suit and at least make > > MariaDB the default in the Ubuntu 25.10 cycle, and potentially remove > > MySQL in some later release. > > > > The 25.04 development cycle is not yet open, but I am submitting this > > proposal now, as it would be an ideal time to plan and decide ahead, > > and execute immediately at the start of the 25.04 dev cycle in early > > November. > > > > > > Benefits > > ======= > > > > The main benefits listed in order of importance: > > > > The MariaDB Server is more Ubuntu > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > MariaDB is more compatible with the Ubuntu community values and closer > > to the Ubuntu meaning "humanity to others" than Oracle MySQL. All Free > > and Open Source Software proponents view MariaDB as a far better > > option than Oracle MySQL, which only does code dumps at release to > > stay GPL-compliant and has no openness beyond that. MySQL does accept > > contributions, but under very strict contributor license terms and > > without transparency on what happens with the submission, and their > > contributor numbers are very low. > > > > While MariaDB isn't perfect, it does function far better in spirit > > than Oracle, thanks to all MariaDB development happening in the open. > > This means that anybody can see git commits in real-time, and > > participate in all bug tracker, mailing list and chat discussions. To > > mention some weaknesses, the reviews often take a long time and the CI > > is not consistently green, but at least there are public code reviews > > happening and all CI runs are public. This is in sharp contrast to how > > Oracle runs MySQL development. Additionally, the MariaDB Server > > development is stewarded by the non-profit MariaDB Foundation, with > > two dozen sponsors to help guarantee continuity and openness [1]. > > > > > > The MariaDB Server is likely to outlive MySQL > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Oracle acquired Sun Microsystems in 2008, and MySQL with it. To avoid > > antitrust lawsuits in the EU, Oracle made public commitments to not > > kill MySQL, which at the time was considered a competitor to Oracle's > > own database. While Oracle did sunset many other projects and thus > > made room for a truly open version to live on (e.g. OpenOffice ⇾ > > LibreOffice, Hudson ⇾ Jenkins), in the case of MySQL, it has kept the > > lights on for now. Some argue[2] however that Oracle has been slowly > > killing MySQL in the past years by not adding relevant features to its > > core GPLv2 edition, but instead putting all new cool things in > > Heatwave, their closed source cloud-only offering. > > > > The MariaDB Server, on the other hand, has been steadily adding major > > features. MariaDB offers for example the SQL_MODE=oracle mode to ease > > migrations away from the Oracle database, something Oracle would never > > do in MySQL as it would cannibalize their own main product. Supporting > > users to migrate away from Oracle databases is important to advancing > > open source adoption in general, and good for all current and future > > Ubuntu users. > > > > > > MariaDB is growing faster than MySQL > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > MySQL became the most popular open source database in the advent of > > web applications in the late 1990s and in particular as part of the > > LAMP stack. For example WordPress, Wikipedia and Facebook were > > originally built on MySQL. However, in the past decade MySQL has been > > in steady decline based on various data sources such as Google Trends, > > Shodan Trends and DB-Engines. These data sources however show that > > MariaDB has been steadily growing. The growth of MariaDB is far behind > > the growth of PostgreSQL, but nevertheless MariaDB is growing faster > > than MySQL. > > > > For several years already, the company behind WordPress, Automattic, > > and the Wikimedia Foundation have been using MariaDB extensively and > > have also been MariaDB Foundation sponsors. Most Linux distributions > > have been shipping only MariaDB for nearly a decade. Ubuntu is one of > > the few that has been resisting this trend, and I suggest it to be > > changed now. > > > > > > MariaDB is more stable > > ------------------------------- > > > > Both MySQL and MariaDB have bugs, and some (albeit a declining number) > > of the bugs are identical, as they stem from the old code base that is > > still the same for MySQL and MariaDB. However many users have noticed > > that MySQL has in recent years had many severe bugs and the quality of > > MySQL releases seems to have declined, in particular since MySQL > > 8.0.29 [3]. The latest MySQL 8.0.38 has such a severe bug that Percona > > publicly warns about upgrading to it [4]. > > > > The stability of MariaDB is also directly visible in the Debian and > > Ubuntu (Launchpad) bug trackers, where MariaDB has 55 and 2 bugs > > compared to MySQL (8.0) with 150 and 38 bugs. Both variants are in > > wide use and have had roughly the same number of releases, so the > > numbers are mostly comparable. MariaDB has been getting stable > > security updates on steady cadence since Ubuntu 14.04 in all LTS and > > non-LTS versions and, to my recollection, with zero regressions. > > > > > > MariaDB has more features > > ------------------------------------ > > > > MariaDB 11.7, scheduled to be announced for general availability in > > February 2025, will have several features MySQL lacks. Notable > > examples are full vector storage and search functionality for > > retrieval augmented AI applications, complete year 2038 support, > > online schema changes (ALTER TABLE without locking the entire table), > > TLS enabled by default with zero-configuration certificate management, > > new PARSEC authentication method for improved security and much more. > > MySQL seems to be adding most new features to their non-open version, > > while the open source version that Ubuntu uses hasn't seen that many > > new significant features despite having a more frequent release > > cadence now. > > > > > > MariaDB is faster > > ----------------------- > > > > Speed has always been a selling point for MySQL/MariaDB compared to > > other databases. For every new release of both MySQL and MariaDB, new > > features are introduced, and they increase the overhead a bit. > > However, MariaDB has a much better ratio of new features vs. > > performance penalty, and MySQL has both fewer features and more > > performance regressions [5]. Thus, users already on MySQL/MariaDB are > > likely to value performance and likely would benefit from the 5-30% > > performance improvement if switching to MariaDB (depends on workload). > > > > > > Switching to MariaDB right now would be the optimal timing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Ubuntu 24.10 repositories currently contain MySQL 8.0, which will be > > end-of-life in April 2026. Users will be faced with a decision to do > > migration work from MySQL 8.0 to either a new major MySQL version or > > to MariaDB. Due to MySQL aggressively deprecating features/SQL syntax, > > upgrading to a new future MySQL version is likely going to require > > extra work. Assuming MariaDB maintains its excellent backwards > > compatibility track-record, upgrades to MariaDB from MySQL do not > > require much application changes and is likely less disruptive to the > > majority of users. > > > > Introducing MariaDB as the new default in Ubuntu 25.04 would ensure > > that when Ubuntu 26.04 comes out, the migration path from MySQL 8.0 to > > a future MariaDB version is as smooth as possible. This would also > > help minimize the number of users who would run into issues upgrading > > to MySQL 8.4 or 9.0 meanwhile. > > > > > > Potential downsides and risks > > ======================= > > > > As stated above, MariaDB has been the default and only MySQL variant > > in Debian for many years. All packages in Debian have thus been proven > > to be fully MariaDB compatible for all practical purposes. No major > > downside is to be expected, but any change has the potential to cause > > disruptions and should be planned well ahead. > > > > > > Unexpected Ubuntu-only MySQL dependencies > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Changing the default MySQL variant from Oracle MySQL to MariaDB in > > Ubuntu might lead to some unexpected breakage if Ubuntu has some > > customizations regarding MySQL that are not present in Debian. > > > > To my knowledge there aren't any. Running `apt rdepends mysql*` on an > > Ubuntu 24.10 host shows that the only packages that depend on > > "mysql-server" specifically are "lyricue", which does not exist in > > Debian at all, and "mylvmbackup", which hasn't had any new upstream > > releases in a decade. All other hundreds of applications that depend > > on MySQL depend on one of the `default-mysql-*` metapackages. > > > > Currently in Ubuntu, these `default-mysql-*` metapackages depend on > > the actual MySQL packages. In Debian all the `default-mysql-*` > > packages depend on equivalent MariaDB packages. Aligning Ubuntu with > > Debian in this regard should go smoothly. All new installations would > > start using MariaDB automatically, unless users specifically opt to > > use MySQL. > > > > > > Upgrade issues > > --------------------- > > > > Changing the default MySQL variant by making the `default-mysql-*` > > packages depend on equivalent MariaDB packages will not affect > > existing systems and they will continue to run the current MySQL > > server they already have. > > > > If a host is running Ubuntu 16.04 or 18.04 with MySQL 5.7 a user could > > choose to upgrade directly to MariaDB by simply issuing `apt install > > mariadb-server`. > > > > If a host is running Ubuntu 20.04 or newer and has MySQL 8.0, the > > in-place upgrade to MariaDB is not possible with a single apt command. > > Those users could however be instructed to do a logical dump as a SQL > > file with the mysqldump tool, and uninstall MySQL 8.0, install the > > latest MariaDB and import the SQL file. > > > > If users do nothing, they would stay on MySQL 8.0 and not have to > > consider anything until MySQL 8.0 is end-of-life in April 2026. At > > that point users could do the manual upgrade via dump-and-restore to > > MariaDB. > > > > Note that while MySQL to MySQL upgrades seem smaller in name than > > MySQL to MariaDB upgrades, newer MySQL versions have deprecated a > > bunch of features and SQL syntax. Thus, upgrades to new MySQL versions > > may require more application changes to be done than simply upgrading > > to MariaDB, which so far has an excellent track-record of backwards > > compatibility. > > > > There are configuration options that are incompatible between MySQL > > and MariaDB. There are ongoing efforts to provide a migration tool > > [6]. With more user feedback, this process can be better polished for > > Ubuntu 26.04 LTS. > > > > > > Cross-host compatibility > > ------------------------------- > > > > Users who have multiple Ubuntu hosts running MySQL servers and > > applications using them could in theory face some issues. For example, > > when an application server is upgraded to use the MariaDB client while > > the database server continues to run a MySQL server. However, the > > MySQL wire protocol has not had any changes in decades and thus the > > MySQL and MariaDB client libraries and client binaries are fully > > interoperable: one can use a MariaDB client to connect to a MySQL > > database and vice versa. > > > > The exception to this is any client using the MySQL X protocol. That > > is not supported in MariaDB. Those users can however choose to > > continue using MySQL. This proposal is not suggesting removing MySQL > > from Ubuntu, but simply to make MariaDB the default for a better > > future path. > > > > Another consideration is connector libraries, for example for Python > > or Java. Due to the protocol compatibility and shared background, most > > MySQL connectors are compatible with MariaDB. There are some > > incompatibilities in package names in the MariaDB Python connector, > > but these can be worked around. Thanks to having had MariaDB as > > default in Debian for several years, the remaining issues are > > marginal, but not zero. > > > > A third consideration is replication setups. Ubuntu does not include > > any replication automation, so all replication setups are managed > > manually or by 3rd party automation software. Users would need to be > > instructed to upgrade all replicas first, as MySQL and MariaDB in > > general are designed to allow replicas to connect to old sources. > > After upgrading the replica, users could then promote it to be the > > primary source instance, and shut down the old primary to complete the > > upgrade process. > > > > While there are some known edge cases when upgrades from MySQL to > > MariaDB do not fully work, they are in practice rare. Considering that > > all of Debian upgraded smoothly to MariaDB, and that ever since > > MariaDB has been steadily adding features that smoothen the migration > > path, the upgrade from MySQL to MariaDB should for most users work > > flawlessly. > > > > > > Canonical product impact > > ---------------------------------- > > > > As Canonical is the main sponsor of Ubuntu, the change needs to also > > have some consideration for Canonical's business needs. Currently > > Canonical advertises MySQL at https://canonical.com/data/mysql but > > there is no https://canonical.com/data/mariadb, and Canonical's > > automation offering https://charmhub.io/mysql seems to be focused on > > MySQL. Kubernetes operators, OpenStack modules and alike exist for > > MariaDB, so it is not a technical limitation, but some effort would be > > needed to productize MariaDB automation. > > > > > > Users may need education about the change > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > There might still be many users who have not heard about MariaDB and > > do not know that their current app using MySQL as the backend can > > actually run equally well (and in some cases better and faster) on > > MariaDB. This can however be mitigated by explaining this in release > > notes and in documentation, like has been done in other migrations > > (e.g. OpenOffice to LibreOffice, or Oracle Java to OpenJDK). > > > > Small pun: The fact that Ubuntu 24.10 is code name "Oracular" will > > make it easier for users to remember it was the last Ubuntu version > > that defaulted to Oracle MySQL. > > > > > > Alternative considerations > > ==================== > > > > While I propose MariaDB Server as the best option, for a holistic > > assessment readers should also consider alternative solutions or > > mitigations to the problems faced by Oracle MySQL. > > > > > > Keep MySQL, but demand more openness > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > > If the Ubuntu community wants to stick to MySQL, but make it less > > risky, Ubuntu should seek ways to promote or protect the openness of > > MySQL which is currently nearly non-existent. Ubuntu could perhaps use > > its large community to persuade MySQL to publish git commits in > > real-time and allow participation in the MySQL development, and the > > Ubuntu community could promote every last bit of independent MySQL > > community activity that still exists (e.g. promote > > https://planet.oursqlcommunity.org/). > > > > > > Percona Server > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > > If the Ubuntu community wakes up to the situation with Oracle MySQL, > > but does for some reason not want to switch to MariaDB, another > > alternative would be to collaborate with Percona. Ubuntu could > > consider offering the Percona Server, which is a fork of MySQL that > > follows Oracle more closely, but with added stability and more > > features. To illustrate the situation with one example, the audit > > plugin that Oracle MySQL only offers in their closed-source edition is > > available as open source both in the MariaDB Server and Percona > > Server. There is however added risk about the unknown capability of > > Percona Server truly maintaining a proper fork, given the age, > > complexity, depth and breadth of MySQL as a project. > > > > > > References > > ========= > > > > [1] https://mariadb.org/ > > [2] https://www.percona.com/blog/is-oracle-finally-killing-mysql/ > > [3] > > https://jfg-mysql.blogspot.com/2023/11/thoughts-on-october-2023-mysql-releases.html > > [4] > > https://www.percona.com/blog/do-not-upgrade-to-any-version-of-mysql-after-8-0-37/, > > https://www.percona.com/blog/mysql-8-0-vs-5-7-are-the-newer-versions-more-problematic/ > > [5] > > https://smalldatum.blogspot.com/2024/04/sysbench-on-less-small-server-mariadb.html > > [6] https://github.com/MariaDB/server/pull/2976 > > > > > > Package trackers > > ============= > > https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/mariadb > > https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mariadb > > > > https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/mysql-8.0 > > https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-8.0 > > > > https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/mysql-defaults > > https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-defaults > > > > > > Technical details about MariaDB release policies and testing > > ============================================= > > > > The MariaDB yearly LTS model in February provides the opportunity for > > a MariaDB LTS release to correspond to the LTS cycle of Ubuntu. The > > to-be-LTS version should be available as a release candidate in > > November 2025 at the start of the Ubuntu 26.04 LTS dev cycle: > > https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb-release-model/ > > > > The upstream MariaDB developers test against the architectures of > > amd64, arm64, s390x and ppc64le against real hardware of Ubuntu LTS > > releases well in advance to their release: > > https://buildbot.mariadb.org/#/grid?branch=11.4 > > > > MariaDB is well tested on Ubuntu already, thanks to the official > > Docker container images being built on the latest Ubuntu LTS tag, > > which has well over a billion total image pulls: > > https://hub.docker.com/_/mariadb > > > > > > > > Disclaimer > > ======== > > I am the maintainer for MariaDB in both Debian and Ubuntu, and > > distrust and detest Oracle as a company, so I am naturally biased > > towards MariaDB. I am however striving to represent both balanced pros > > and cons in this proposal and including references. > > -- > ubuntu-devel mailing list > ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org
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