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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Dmitrijs Ledkovs)
2. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Waclaw Kusnierczyk)
3. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Oliver Grawert)
4. Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 77, Issue 7 (Adam Wolfe)
5. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Brett Cornwall)
6. RE: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
(Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn)
7. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Oliver Grawert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:21:31 +0100
From: Dmitrijs Ledkovs <dmitrij.led...@ubuntu.com>
To: Brett Cornwall <brettcornw...@lavabit.com>
Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Message-ID:
<CANBHLUhmc+KH8vhxfQh7neopT829w628HpqZocnKtf6Q8LdD=w...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On 9 April 2013 12:45, Brett Cornwall <brettcornw...@lavabit.com> wrote:
On 04/09/2013 06:31 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
<snip>
Aptitude is a fairly niche and highly technical package.
<snip>
I beg to differ:
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkgtools.en.html
Official Debian docs, section 8.1.3 - aptitude:
"Note that aptitude is the preferred program for daily package management
from console".
Sure, that's why aptitude is seeded on ubuntu-server images, is in
main and supported.
Dismissing this as a 'niche' tool hardly counts.
Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are "niche"
on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications
are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server.
We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
package management using:
- dash application scope
- software updater
- software center
Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above.
AFAIR, Debian was even trying to discourage usage of apt-get in the day in
favor of aptitude before Ubuntu decided to drop aptitude in 10.10.
On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as
there is no need for that for non-developers.
Regards,
Dmitrijs.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:37:33 +0200
From: Waclaw Kusnierczyk <w...@idi.ntnu.no>
To: Dmitrijs Ledkovs <dmitrij.led...@ubuntu.com>
Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Message-ID: <51640b8d.4040...@idi.ntnu.no>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Where does this conmviction come from?
On 04/09/2013 02:21 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as
there is no need for that for non-developers.
Regards,
Dmitrijs.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 15:10:04 +0200
From: Oliver Grawert <o...@ubuntu.com>
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Message-ID: <1365513004.29159.3.camel@chromebook>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
hi,
On Di, 2013-04-09 at 13:21 +0100, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
package management using:
- dash application scope
- software updater
- software center
on a sidenote it would be duplication to add an additional package
commandline tool with additional metadata DBs next to apts. we are short
enough on diskspace on the images (especially on desktop) no need to
bloat that with duplicated tools ...
ciao
oli
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 09:27:04 -0400
From: Adam Wolfe <kadamwo...@gmail.com>
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 77, Issue 7
Message-ID: <51641728.4050...@gmail.com>
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unsubscribe
On 04/09/2013 08:00 AM, ubuntu-devel-discuss-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com wrote:
Send Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Dmitrijs Ledkovs)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:31:29 +0100
From: Dmitrijs Ledkovs <dmitrij.led...@ubuntu.com>
To: Brett Cornwall <brettcornw...@lavabit.com>
Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Message-ID:
<canbhlugc2wsomt9p8+n6m0373rororbp8yw-xkwcf_b4vjf...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On 8 April 2013 17:46, Brett Cornwall <brettcornw...@lavabit.com> wrote:
In revisions past, Ubuntu's CDs did not have enough space to accommodate
aptitude and apt-get. Now that we have moved on to DVDs I feel it would be a
worthy investment to include aptitude by default, especially since it is
Debian's 'proper' package management tool.
We did not move to DVDs, but to a 800MB limit. Aptitude is a fairly
niche and highly technical package. People who know/want to use
aptitude are also sufficiently advanced to install it manually.
Regards,
Dmitrijs.
------------------------------
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:29:04 -0400
From: Brett Cornwall <brettcornw...@lavabit.com>
To: Dmitrijs Ledkovs <dmitrij.led...@ubuntu.com>,
ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Message-ID: <516433c0.5040...@lavabit.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
<snip>
Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are "niche"
on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications
are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server.
We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
package management using:
- dash application scope
- software updater
- software center
Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above.
I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users
install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top?
My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended
package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the
packages possible for this project.
So the drawbacks of including aptitude seem to be:
1) It takes up 2 MB of space
2) Dependency resolution might have to actually be tested (instead of
making every stupid package just depend on ubuntu-desktop or xorg?). ;)
On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as
there is no need for that for non-developers.
I see, so an OS for 'everyone' shouldn't even have gnome-terminal
installed at all - make people switch to a VT (and why hasn't that been
disabled by default? I'd bet my life savings that every user has
accidentally hit CTRL+ALT+F1 at least once on their Ubuntu use - now
THAT'S an issue to really actively prevent). There are some strange
priorities set based on these phobias. Again, I'm not suggesting an
arbitrary specialized tool like vim/emacs get included, I'm suggesting
the addition of the endorsed CLI package management tool from the Debian
project be included. So if the project were to (understandably) want to
include only one CLI tool to use, why not aptitude? As stated, it's
already officially supported on ubuntu-server, why not include it on
ubuntu-desktop and drop apt-get to reduce a package to have to
officially support?
And who said I was a developer? I'd only be so lucky to be able to claim
that title.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 15:36:48 +0000
From: Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn <alan...@hotmail.com>
To: Brett Cornwall <brettcornw...@lavabit.com>, Dmitrijs Ledkovs
<dmitrij.led...@ubuntu.com>, "ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com"
<ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: RE: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Message-ID: <blu171-w1147da27aa146da75f91565b5...@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:29:04 -0400
From: brettcornw...@lavabit.com
To: dmitrij.led...@ubuntu.com; ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
<snip>
Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are "niche"
on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications
are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server.
We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
package management using:
- dash application scope
- software updater
- software center
Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above.
I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users
install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top?
My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended
package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the
packages possible for this project.
So the drawbacks of including aptitude seem to be:
1) It takes up 2 MB of space
2 mb more no makes the difference..
2) Dependency resolution might have to actually be tested (instead of
making every stupid package just depend on ubuntu-desktop or xorg?). ;)
+1
On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as
there is no need for that for non-developers.
I see, so an OS for 'everyone' shouldn't even have gnome-terminal
installed at all - make people switch to a VT (and why hasn't that been
disabled by default? I'd bet my life savings that every user has
accidentally hit CTRL+ALT+F1 at least once on their Ubuntu use - now
THAT'S an issue to really actively prevent). There are some strange
priorities set based on these phobias. Again, I'm not suggesting an
arbitrary specialized tool like vim/emacs get included, I'm suggesting
the addition of the endorsed CLI package management tool from the Debian
project be included. So if the project were to (understandably) want to
include only one CLI tool to use, why not aptitude? As stated, it's
already officially supported on ubuntu-server, why not include it on
ubuntu-desktop and drop apt-get to reduce a package to have to
officially support?
And who said I was a developer? I'd only be so lucky to be able to claim
that title.
--
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:57:54 +0200
From: Oliver Grawert <o...@ubuntu.com>
To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
Message-ID: <1365523074.6659.6.camel@chromebook>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On Di, 2013-04-09 at 11:29 -0400, Brett Cornwall wrote:
On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
<snip>
Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are "niche"
on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications
are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server.
We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
package management using:
- dash application scope
- software updater
- software center
Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above.
I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users
install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top?
My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended
package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the
packages possible for this project.
ranting wont get you anywhere ...
aptitude is not the recommended tool in ubuntu and never was (at least
in the 9 years i work on ubuntu) ... if it is recommended anywhere that
is definitely wrong and this recommendation should be adjusted to
apt-get.
all package management and its UI tools revolve around apt since day
one.
you could as well rant about the fact that we dont include dselect by
default ... both are debian tools that arent used in an ubuntu default
installation ...
ciao
oli
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