[email protected]: > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 17:37:58 -0400 > From: Gregory Disney <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Tor's reputation problem with pedo, some easy > steps the community could take > Message-ID: > <cacotuh6fxtwmxmwau3ttbbgaems9zbb6nxwmrv3g-zff-ef...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Related to the anarchism comment above. > > > On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Gregory Disney > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> > I think Tor Project does follow Mihkal Bakunin principles on Freedom... >> > From Revolutionary Catechism: >> > III. Freedom is the absolute right of every adult man and woman to seek no >> > other sanction for their acts than their own conscience and their own >> > reason, being responsible first to themselves and then to the society which >> > they have *voluntarily *accepted. >> > >> > IV. It is not true that the freedom of one man is limited by that of other >> > men. Man is really free to the extent that his freedom, fully acknowledged >> > and mirrored by the free consent of his fellowmen, finds confirmation and >> > expansion in their liberty. Man is truly free only among equally free men; >> > the slavery of even one human being violates humanity and negates the >> > freedom of all. >> > >> > V. The *freedom *of each is therefore realizable only in the equality of >> > all. The realization of freedom through equality, in principle and in fact, >> > is *justice.* >> > >> > VI. If there is one fundamental principle of human morality, *it is >> > freedom*. To respect the freedom of your fellowman *is duty; *to love, >> > help, and serve him is *virtue.* >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 4:59 PM, NoName <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >>> >> On 17.05.2013 19:50, David Vorick wrote: >>> >> >>>> >>> Except I think that in this case Tor is a bit more like a gun than a >>>> >>> screw >>>> >>> driver. The good purposes aren't always obvious and the nefarious >>>> >>> purposes >>>> >>> are on the forefront of public attention a lot more. It's not a perfect >>>> >>> analogy but I think you see what I'm getting at. >>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> It's amusing to see this over and over. And it's only a byproduct of how >>> >> our minds and culture perceive things. It's always about good ol' times >>> >> and >>> >> about how the new things could sake the foundations of society to the >>> >> point >>> >> of breaking it. Than it becomes normal and people believe things were >>> >> always like that. >>> >> >>> >> Take the steam engine. It was the devil's work. Mixing fire and water! >>> >> That was against the creation itself. But it turned out to be quite >>> >> practical. The Internet in general isn't any different. Only that banks >>> >> have discovered they can fire half the tellers by launching Internet >>> >> banking. So it was good business. And their short opening hours became >>> >> 24/7. Is Internet bad? No! Of course not! No pedo would have the nerve to >>> >> use the Internet. Why? Because banks and governments do. >>> >> >>> >> Was the steam engine used by the bad guys? Of course. Most of the early >>> >> adopters were probably under the broad classification of bad guys. >>> >> Because >>> >> serfs weren't even allowed to travel in some countries. And noble men >>> >> were >>> >> not so eager to spend a lot of money on that. But generic bad guys were >>> >> ready to spend a pretty penny to gain some speed and confort. Guess what! >>> >> Two centuries after, bad guys still use mass transportation. Most of >>> >> them. >>> >> >>> >> What about the phone? It was hard to get. It was expensive. In a poor >>> >> neighbourhood was cheaper to send some child running. For longer >>> >> distances >>> >> there was the postal service. And for a quick delivery there was the >>> >> telegraph. And all of them had a good network that could reach places >>> >> where >>> >> there was no phone line a century later. But creative bad guys saw the >>> >> potential and started using it. For that you now have the so called >>> >> lawful >>> >> interception. Because most bad guys were using the phone. And they were >>> >> using it more than the student son calling his momma. Mobile phones? So >>> >> large they needed a car to make them portable? The G1. The bad guys had >>> >> those too. And they were using them to coordonate and organise. Gee! The >>> >> same end of the world scenario stupid press announces for Twitter. Only >>> >> those radio phones were easy to intercept. Did the bad guys drop them? >>> >> Heck >>> >> no! They started using code words. >>> >> >>> >> 3d printers? Well, they can make guns! Big guns! That kill innocent >>> >> people. Have you noticed the dead are always innocent? Even that b**** >>> >> Tatcher was an angel. Same went for bittorrent. Now they are using it to >>> >> push the distribution of movies to digital cinemas, to infect your PC >>> >> with >>> >> paid closed source software. So today not all torrents are criminal. And >>> >> ISPs don't block bt ports anymore. Wait a bit for the 3d printers. When >>> >> Lego would distribute its silly toys by making you pay for the plastic >>> >> too >>> >> it would be a nice thing abused by some script kiddies. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> The purpose of Tor is to liberate people from state control and >>>> >>> censorship. >>>> >>> Informally, the purpose of Tor is to help people break rules. We >>>> >>> support >>>> >>> Tor because we want oppressive rules to be broken but ultimately it's >>>> >>> an >>>> >>> anarchist tool, and that's something that's not going to sit well with >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> public. >>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> Don't be such a child! >>> >> >>> >> State control? How about ISP control? How about corporate control? How >>> >> about abusive partners or parents? In those countries called not?free by >>> >> the corporate media children walk around free. They even have to work and >>> >> be treated as adults from an early age. Even when the village is next to >>> >> the minefield they go working in the morning and return home at night. >>> >> And >>> >> that's no video game. At the same time, in the free world as the press >>> >> likes to intelectually masturbate children are under house arrest. They >>> >> are >>> >> under total control. Want to chat with your 4th grade colleague to >>> >> prepare >>> >> the homework? Want to use that new and wonderful skill of writing? Now >>> >> get >>> >> adult supervision! Under 13 or 17 or 18 or 21? Your account can be >>> >> terminated. Parents install filtering software and want access to social >>> >> media accounts and passworded diaries. What could seem exagerated for >>> >> 1984 >>> >> is daily life for some kids in the industrialised world. >>> >> >>> >> The purpose of Tor is not to break rules. Is to offer privacy. And guess >>> >> what? Most private people don't break any rules. >>> >> >>> >> Oppresive rules are not broken by Tor. See, Even FBI and DEA are using >>> >> it. >>> >> >>> >> And anarchism is not about that. Good timing with grafitti can be much >>> >> more valuable. >>> >> >>> >> But it's funny that you use the term public, after all that flag waving. >>> >> Most people I've met use the term public or masses as a way of putting >>> >> themselves above the crowds. >>> >> >>> >> Cheers! >>> >> >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >>> >> tor-talk mailing list >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> https://lists.torproject.org/**cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-**talk<https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk> >>> >> >> > >> > Hello- I'm Ethan long time tor user first time calling in :D.
I think a better metaphor than a gun here is a bullet proof vest- tor can provide protection. And also I like Jacob's analogy of surveillance being like a disease. And he did an excellent job covering this and then after arguing with cisco guy who was making the same analogy calling Jake an arms dealer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z4pHGRYhFPE#t=2873s I see tor as in a sense having the capability of being used for anarchist dual power and restoring that sense of agency rather than the gaze of authorities re-inforcing the norm. Regarding onions and CP: Honestly my intuitive thinking fast response when I was just browsing random onions with people discussing it and saying they're raping children I say take it down, WTF! But reflecting I think when dealing with free speech it's always dangerous to start making it relative to situation/subject. Rather we must tackle the social causes that lead to the raping of children: sociologically child abuse happens when there's spikes in poverty. I think a lot of our societal ills come out of depravity (I mean this a purely secular sense; no gods no masters) and through social justice we can heal not social control. But if going down that route I think Chris Patti's suggestion may be better directed towards the people who run the onions individually rather than the tor project
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