Hi All, Thanks for all info regarding my 1000 feet feeder. Well some people mentioned 2 dB loss is not so much. Personally i am agree on what ON4UN says in his book. 0.5 here and another 0.5 ++++ and then you are suddenly up to 2-4 dB total loss. Not sure how much power 75 ohm CATV cable can handle, running her Acom 2000A amplifier so plenty of horse power. I will check what is available of 75 ohm CATV cable, but i feel that using parallel feeder is a good option for me if i need around 800-1000 feet of feeder. Thanks again for all help, hope this is up and running to the upcoming winter.
73 Rune LA7THA > From: [email protected] > Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 136, Issue 21 > To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 12:00:08 -0400 > > Send Topband mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) > 2. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (Carl) > 3. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) > 4. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (Carl) > 5. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (Charlie) > 6. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > (Grant Saviers) > 7. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > (Mike Waters) > 8. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > (Jim Brown) > 9. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > (Mike Waters) > 10. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (k1fz) > 11. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > (Jim Brown) > 12. 1000 ft Hardline (Bill & Liz) > 13. Re: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. (Carl) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 09:10:33 -0700 > From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <[email protected]> > To: Rune ?ye <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > I used to have a 1000 foot long open wire line using > 4AWG stranded insulated aluminum wire with an impedance of > 450 ohms. At the time, the wire cost $0.15 per foot. > I think 4AWG was the smallest size available in aluminum. > It is much easier to build a transformer > for 450 ohms than 600 ohms, because 450/50 = 9 is > a perfect square. The spacing is something like 12.5 > cm. It is supported every 15 meters with a support that > spaces the wires apart by 12.5 cm. There are no intermediate > spreaders. Originally, I had some intermediate spreaders but > found them to be unnecessary. At each end there is a 50 ohm unbalanced > to 50 ohm balanced transformer in cascade with a 50 ohm > balanced to 450 ohm balanced transformer. The supports > are PVC pipe slipped over "T-posts" (used for fences). > I see that the web site you mentioned shows this same > technique. Maybe they copied me, hi. > It is easily deployed/redeployed. The end to end loss > including the transformers is a few tenths of a dB on > 160 meters. > > I moved the shack closer to the antenna and shortened the > line to 600 feet. The line has served me well for over > 10 years now. There are some photos of the line on my > web site www.n6rk.com. > > Rick N6RK > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 12:17:18 -0400 > From: "Carl" <[email protected]> > To: "Richard \(Rick\) Karlquist" <[email protected]>, Rune ?ye > <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: <8982E2306F6C464A8318E5D471EBF3A4@computer1> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Shouldnt that line be rotated along its length to maintain balance as done > with OWL Beverages? > > Carl > KM1H > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <[email protected]> > To: "Rune ?ye" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 12:10 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > > > >I used to have a 1000 foot long open wire line using > > 4AWG stranded insulated aluminum wire with an impedance of > > 450 ohms. At the time, the wire cost $0.15 per foot. > > I think 4AWG was the smallest size available in aluminum. > > It is much easier to build a transformer > > for 450 ohms than 600 ohms, because 450/50 = 9 is > > a perfect square. The spacing is something like 12.5 > > cm. It is supported every 15 meters with a support that > > spaces the wires apart by 12.5 cm. There are no intermediate > > spreaders. Originally, I had some intermediate spreaders but > > found them to be unnecessary. At each end there is a 50 ohm unbalanced to > > 50 ohm balanced transformer in cascade with a 50 ohm > > balanced to 450 ohm balanced transformer. The supports > > are PVC pipe slipped over "T-posts" (used for fences). > > I see that the web site you mentioned shows this same > > technique. Maybe they copied me, hi. > > It is easily deployed/redeployed. The end to end loss > > including the transformers is a few tenths of a dB on > > 160 meters. > > > > I moved the shack closer to the antenna and shortened the > > line to 600 feet. The line has served me well for over > > 10 years now. There are some photos of the line on my > > web site www.n6rk.com. > > > > Rick N6RK > > > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3920/7399 - Release Date: 04/26/14 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 09:42:59 -0700 > From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <[email protected]> > To: Carl <[email protected]>, Rune ?ye <[email protected]>, > [email protected] > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 4/26/2014 9:17 AM, Carl wrote: > > Shouldnt that line be rotated along its length to maintain balance as > > done with OWL Beverages? > > > > Carl > > KM1H > > > > A big vertical is omni directional and has high signal levels. > This is in contrast to the beverage which has low signal levels > and tries to null out certain directions. If I disconnect the > vertical from the line, the noise level drops many S units, > indicating negligible ingress due to line leakage. > > Rick N6RK > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 13:23:17 -0400 > From: "Carl" <[email protected]> > To: "Richard \(Rick\) Karlquist" <[email protected]>, Rune ?ye > <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: <3D29C153DC584503B193CA07B291F6E5@computer1> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > > > > On 4/26/2014 9:17 AM, Carl wrote: > >> Shouldnt that line be rotated along its length to maintain balance as > >> done with OWL Beverages? > >> > >> Carl > >> KM1H > >> > > > > A big vertical is omni directional and has high signal levels. > > This is in contrast to the beverage which has low signal levels > > and tries to null out certain directions. If I disconnect the > > vertical from the line, the noise level drops many S units, > > indicating negligible ingress due to line leakage. > > > > Rick N6RK > > > What about a 4 square? > > Carl > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:31:16 -0400 > From: "Charlie" <[email protected]> > To: "'Richard \(Rick\) Karlquist'" <[email protected]>, "'Carl'" > <[email protected]>, 'Rune ?ye' <[email protected]>, > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: > > <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAF0xXac1rOhFkn7GlcEWNIjCgAAAEAAAACWJM6zd2WdMhBqL3ccUIeMBAAAAAA==@nc.rr.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > ?? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Topband [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard > (Rick) Karlquist > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 12:43 PM > To: Carl; Rune ?ye; [email protected] > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > > On 4/26/2014 9:17 AM, Carl wrote: > > Shouldnt that line be rotated along its length to maintain balance as > > done with OWL Beverages? > > > > Carl > > KM1H > > > > A big vertical is omni directional and has high signal levels. > This is in contrast to the beverage which has low signal levels and tries to > null out certain directions. If I disconnect the vertical from the line, > the noise level drops many S units, indicating negligible ingress due to > line leakage. > > Rick N6RK > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 17:36:42 -0700 > From: Grant Saviers <[email protected]> > To: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <[email protected]>, Rune ?ye > <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I use 9 gauge Al electric fencing wire for elevated radials among my > trees. It is pretty tough stuff, as 3" branches have fallen on it > without anything but a little stretch. it doesn't stretch much with > time either. Now 7.5 cents per foot on Amazon > http://www.amazon.com/Field-Guardian-9-Guage-Aluminum-1000-Feet/dp/B00442G21G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398558684&sr=8-1&keywords=aluminum+fence+wire+9 > > This is the largest size I have found, but would make pretty good open > wire feeder. > > Grant > > KZ1W > On 4/26/2014 9:10 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > > I used to have a 1000 foot long open wire line using > > 4AWG stranded insulated aluminum wire with an impedance of > > 450 ohms. At the time, the wire cost $0.15 per foot. > > I think 4AWG was the smallest size available in aluminum. > > It is much easier to build a transformer > > for 450 ohms than 600 ohms, because 450/50 = 9 is > > a perfect square. The spacing is something like 12.5 > > cm. It is supported every 15 meters with a support that > > spaces the wires apart by 12.5 cm. There are no intermediate > > spreaders. Originally, I had some intermediate spreaders but > > found them to be unnecessary. At each end there is a 50 ohm > > unbalanced to 50 ohm balanced transformer in cascade with a 50 ohm > > balanced to 450 ohm balanced transformer. The supports > > are PVC pipe slipped over "T-posts" (used for fences). > > I see that the web site you mentioned shows this same > > technique. Maybe they copied me, hi. > > It is easily deployed/redeployed. The end to end loss > > including the transformers is a few tenths of a dB on > > 160 meters. > > > > I moved the shack closer to the antenna and shortened the > > line to 600 feet. The line has served me well for over > > 10 years now. There are some photos of the line on my > > web site www.n6rk.com. > > > > Rick N6RK > > > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:17:05 -0500 > From: Mike Waters <[email protected]> > To: topband <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: > <CA+FxYXi=UTyy=duqptxau4t1nwmr_mnobk79a4smoyersur...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hardline for 160 meters? > > I've mostly used hardline where I really needed it, like back when I was > doing weak signal work on the low end of 144 MHz. > > Is 75 ohm CATV-type RG-6 (F-6) coax available where you live? That's what I > use on 160m to feed my inverted-L that is quite a distance from the > operating position. I buy Commscope quad-shield flooded (buryable) F-6 with > CCS conductor and a bonded inner shield in 1000' spools off eBay. I even > use F connectors at 1500 watts (as do other hams). Neither the coax nor the > F connectors get the least bit warm, even after several minutes of key-down > at 1500 watts. > > The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213. And it will handle over 3000 > watts all day long in the hot sun. > > 73, Mike > www.w0btu.com > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:48:51 -0700 > From: Jim Brown <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 4/26/2014 6:17 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > > The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213. > > Only in an advertising brochure for the RG-6. On 160M, loss is all due > to copper, and there's LOT more copper in RG213 than in any RG6 cables > I've seen. Remember -- the question was about 1,000 ft. > > As to the suggestion of 75 ohm CATV coax -- it should work fine if > anything fairly large diameter is available at low cost. In the US, I've > heard that partial spools are often thrown in the trash by CATV > companies who don't want to deal with those shorter lengths. That may or > may not be true in Norway, where LA7THA lives. And even if he could find > this hard line, he would likely need to make several splices, and the > connectors could be expensive. > > 1,000 ft of the best RG8 - RG213 cables I know of will burn a bit less > than 2 dB on topband, which is a LOT more than I would like to throw > away on 160M. N6RK's suggestion is about 1.7 dB better than that. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 22:21:07 -0500 > From: Mike Waters <[email protected]> > To: topband <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: > <CA+FxYXhMW=vqpr+c3bvmfm47xmvsrbdzsyut9v925qnpouc...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > You're right about the loss being all in the copper center conductor, Jim. > > I based that statement on a graph that Owen Duffy had on the old > vk1od.netsite for solid center conductor. Perhaps I looked at it > wrong, but I don't > think so. > > There were two charts, one for loss and the other for power handling > capability. Maybe I have them confused. > > However, I did look at Commscope's data sheet. I forget all the details, > but their loss specs at MF looked really good. > > 73, Mike > www.w0btu.com > > On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Jim Brown <[email protected]>wrote: > > > On 4/26/2014 6:17 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > > > >> The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213. > >> > > > > Only in an advertising brochure for the RG-6. On 160M, loss is all due to > > copper, and there's LOT more copper in RG213 than in any RG6 cables I've > > seen. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 23:47:05 -0400 > From: "k1fz" <[email protected]> > To: "Mike Waters" <[email protected]>, "topband" > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: <FBE65F66B48143B08EB182640ED2D9F7@k1fzPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > > A calibrated dummy load wattmeter at the far end of the cable can be a real > eye opener. Power loss distributed 1000 feet would not result in much > warming. > > 73 > Bruce-K1FZ > www.qsl.net/k1fz/pennantnotes.html > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Waters" <[email protected]> > To: "topband" <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 11:21 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > > > > You're right about the loss being all in the copper center conductor, Jim. > > > > I based that statement on a graph that Owen Duffy had on the old > > vk1od.netsite for solid center conductor. Perhaps I looked at it > > wrong, but I don't > > think so. > > > > There were two charts, one for loss and the other for power handling > > capability. Maybe I have them confused. > > > > However, I did look at Commscope's data sheet. I forget all the details, > > but their loss specs at MF looked really good. > > > > 73, Mike > > www.w0btu.com > > > > On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Jim Brown > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >> On 4/26/2014 6:17 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > >> > >>> The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213. > >>> > >> > >> Only in an advertising brochure for the RG-6. On 160M, loss is all due to > >> copper, and there's LOT more copper in RG213 than in any RG6 cables I've > >> seen. > >> > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 00:00:23 -0700 > From: Jim Brown <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 4/26/2014 8:21 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > > You're right about the loss being all in the copper center conductor, Jim. > > AND in the shield. One of the things that gives bigger coax lower loss > is that skin effect has the greater diameter of the shield to work with. > > It's important to realize that "RG6" and "RG213" are no longer > specifications for the cable that we buy. There are, for example, > several dozen RG6s in the Belden catalog, many very different from each > other. Ditto for RG8, RG11, RG58, RG59, RG213, etc. You've got to look > at the mfr data sheets to find the real specs. > > Example -- go to the Belden website and compare 9212, 8213, 9913, > 9913UF. Very different construction, very different loss > characteristics. All "RG11" (although I've seen 9212 described as RG11 > in older catalogs and RG6 in at least one newer one). I've got a big > spool of 9212, and it's slightly smaller than most RG11, but a lot > bigger than any RG6 I've ever seen. > > I haven't seen Owen's charts, but there's a good chance they're out of > date in that respect. > > For cables of approximately the same o.d. a pretty good determinant of > loss is DCR of the shield and center combined, because resistance at RF > is that DCR multiplied by skin effect. Cables with Cu clad Al, like > LMR400, are an exception. By the time you hit 2 MHz, it's equivalent to > solid copper. But NOT for Cu clad steel -- it doesn't get close to to > solid Cu for another octave or two. (an octave is double the frequency). > > There's more detail about this in k9yc.com/Coax-Stubs.pdf > > 73, Jim K9YC > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 06:36:22 -0400 > From: "Bill & Liz" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Topband: 1000 ft Hardline > Message-ID: <E949F8D02FB44A25B9AB70098FC686B7@BILLMAINPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Cable TV companies up this way have not used 75 ohm hardline for many years > and several have large inventories in storage awaiting disposal. I acquired > two nearly full reels for free: one buryable 5/8? and the other non-buryable > . Each reel had about 1500-2,000 ft on it and the cable is now used in > feeding both my TX antennas and Beverages located from 250-600 ft away from > the house. > > The cable is available and probably free for the asking in your area too. > > Bill VE3CSK > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:44:39 -0400 > From: "Carl" <[email protected]> > To: "Mike Waters" <[email protected]>, "topband" > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder > line. > Message-ID: <F6B18B1EB7ED42A4A87AFC73474B8616@computer1> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hardline doesnt get chewed Mike; I run 750' of 1/2" CATV on the ground to > the Beverage hub. That was after flooded RG-11 and RG-6 got destroyed during > a few winter months when the critters were hungry. > > Not a nibble in the past 24 years. > > Carl > KM1H > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Waters" <[email protected]> > To: "topband" <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 9:17 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: 1000 feet 5/8" hardline or 600ohm True Ladder line. > > > > Hardline for 160 meters? > > > > I've mostly used hardline where I really needed it, like back when I was > > doing weak signal work on the low end of 144 MHz. > > > > Is 75 ohm CATV-type RG-6 (F-6) coax available where you live? That's what > > I > > use on 160m to feed my inverted-L that is quite a distance from the > > operating position. I buy Commscope quad-shield flooded (buryable) F-6 > > with > > CCS conductor and a bonded inner shield in 1000' spools off eBay. I even > > use F connectors at 1500 watts (as do other hams). Neither the coax nor > > the > > F connectors get the least bit warm, even after several minutes of > > key-down > > at 1500 watts. > > > > The loss of RG-6 is about the same as RG-213. And it will handle over 3000 > > watts all day long in the hot sun. > > > > 73, Mike > > www.w0btu.com > > _________________ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3920/7401 - Release Date: 04/26/14 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Topband mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Topband Digest, Vol 136, Issue 21 > **************************************** _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
