Tree,
Thanks for clarifying your position... like many I dont want to be censored and I promise not to assisanate too many characters. First of all I love CW.. I was a navy radioman and I enjoy CW going to it first before other modes ... even though my speed sucks these day due to hearing problems (yea I know it sounds like I send with a hammer but trust me it is hearing problems). On days when the tinitus is driving me nuts I go to digital modes.. simple I want to be on the air. Consider this however, CW and digital modes like JT65 typically share the CW portion of the bands. It therefore seems logical that there should be some place in the approximately 40khz at the bottom of top band for digltal. I listen to the whole 40 khz every night and almost never hear anyone below 1810 EXCEPT for W1AW. CW occupies such a small portion of the band and they not on during contests. One of the great things about top band is the brotherhood and competitiveness of the users. WHy should this even be an issue. I enjoy ALL of the hobby.. Jim WA3MEJ On 12/30/2011 04:14 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 12/30/2011 9:14 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >> Most JT65 activity is relatively low power - typically between 10 and >> 50 watts on HF. > > Yes, but if I were trying to work a difficult path like EU on 160M from > here in W6, I would be running as much power as I thought my power amp > could safely handle for the 50 second keydown cycle -- (probably about > 500W). > > Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on 160M > in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in > understanding his concerns. Agreed. I believe it would be a polite thing for all the digital ops to happen around 1838, so as to not cause interference to the CW ops lower in the band. -- All rights reversed. ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 8:54:15 PM Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 108, Issue 87 Send Topband mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: RX antenna switch (Dave G4GED) 2. Re: RX antenna switch (Joe Subich, W4TV) 3. Re: 160M JT65HF (Jim Brown) 4. Re: 160M JT65HF (Joe Subich, W4TV) 5. Re: 160M JT65HF (Rik van Riel) 6. Re: RX antenna switch (Eric Tichansky NO3M) 7. K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP), parts and winding for isolation transformer. (Guy Olinger K2AV) 8. Folded counterpoise, recent before and after stories (Guy Olinger K2AV) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:27:33 -0000 From: "Dave G4GED" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna switch To: "Brian Moran" <[email protected]>, "Dave Anderson, K4SV" <[email protected]>, "TopBand Reflector" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <0905A07D70444D5795564DD9EC4BCB52@acer4d025c48b8> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Moran" <[email protected]> Here's one that works for TX & Rx. http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/projects/CoaxSwitch/CoaxSwitch.html With lockout, etc. A homebrew version of the '6 pack' kind of box from array solutions. I have the Array Solutions one, and it works great. - Brian N9ADG ________________________________ Thanks Brian for the submission which I'm sure admirably suits selection of TX/RX antennas perhaps for selection of different bands etc. If I've read it correctly, the antennas are selected by rotary switches. The primary need for selection of RX antennas on TopBand is to be able to switch from any one to any other instantly without the tedium and confusion of having to spin a rotary switch back and forth whilst trying to find best copy out of an extreemly weak signal down in the noise. A matrix of "quiet" interlocked push button switches would be ideal, which require just one push to instantly change from any one antenna to any other. Unfortunately, they're not easy to come by these days which is why I'm thinking of a relay based solution. There's undoubtably software solutions available to do this but I'm afraid that's out of my league, unless someone here can pull a design out ready made for DIY! Cheers Dave ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:00:07 -0500 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna switch To: Dave G4GED <[email protected]>, "[Topband]" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Interlocked switches should not be necessary for receive applications. If by interlocked you're looking for a way to deselect one antenna when selecting the next, check K1TTT's web site. Dave had a push button controller that would release previously selected antennas when making a new selection. I haven't looked for it recently so you may need to do some digging. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/30/2011 3:27 PM, Dave G4GED wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Moran"<[email protected]> > Here's one that works for TX& Rx. > http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/projects/CoaxSwitch/CoaxSwitch.html With lockout, > etc. A homebrew version of the '6 pack' kind of box from array solutions. I > have the Array Solutions one, and it works great. > - Brian N9ADG > ________________________________ > > Thanks Brian for the submission which I'm sure admirably suits selection of > TX/RX antennas perhaps for selection of different bands etc. > If I've read it correctly, the antennas are selected by rotary switches. > The primary need for selection of RX antennas on TopBand is to be able to > switch from any one to any other instantly without the tedium and confusion > of having to spin a rotary switch back and forth whilst trying to find best > copy out of an extreemly weak signal down in the noise. > A matrix of "quiet" interlocked push button switches would be ideal, which > require just one push to instantly change from any one antenna to any other. > Unfortunately, they're not easy to come by these days which is why I'm > thinking of a relay based solution. There's undoubtably software solutions > available to do this but I'm afraid that's out of my league, unless someone > here can pull a design out ready made for DIY! > Cheers Dave > > _______________________________________________ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:14:32 -0800 From: Jim Brown <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Topband: 160M JT65HF To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 12/30/2011 9:14 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > Most JT65 activity is relatively low power - typically between 10 and > 50 watts on HF. Yes, but if I were trying to work a difficult path like EU on 160M from here in W6, I would be running as much power as I thought my power amp could safely handle for the 50 second keydown cycle -- (probably about 500W). Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on 160M in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in understanding his concerns. This is the sort of information that I'd love to see collected for ALL countries on a website. I'd be happy to post it on mine if someone were to collect it. 73, Jim K9YC ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:33:00 -0500 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Topband: 160M JT65HF To: [email protected], "[Topband]" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on > 160M in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in > understanding his concerns. This is the sort of information that I'd > love to see collected for ALL countries on a website. I'd be happy > to post it on mine if someone were to collect it. Dennis N0CKD/N4CKD used to maintain such a list ... I don't know if it is still available. EI8IC also has a similar list at: http://www.mapability.com/ei8ic/contest/topband.php but it appears to have not been updated over the entire last sunspot cycle ... K8ND also has a list here (dated 9 September 2010): http://www.k8nd.com/Radio/Planning/CQWW160/160FrequencyAllocation.pdf 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/30/2011 4:14 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 12/30/2011 9:14 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >> Most JT65 activity is relatively low power - typically between 10 and >> 50 watts on HF. > > Yes, but if I were trying to work a difficult path like EU on 160M from > here in W6, I would be running as much power as I thought my power amp > could safely handle for the 50 second keydown cycle -- (probably about > 500W). > > Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on 160M > in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in > understanding his concerns. This is the sort of information that I'd > love to see collected for ALL countries on a website. I'd be happy to > post it on mine if someone were to collect it. > > 73, Jim K9YC > _______________________________________________ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:23:17 -0500 From: Rik van Riel <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Topband: 160M JT65HF To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 12/30/2011 04:14 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 12/30/2011 9:14 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >> Most JT65 activity is relatively low power - typically between 10 and >> 50 watts on HF. > > Yes, but if I were trying to work a difficult path like EU on 160M from > here in W6, I would be running as much power as I thought my power amp > could safely handle for the 50 second keydown cycle -- (probably about > 500W). > > Thor's very informative post about the far more limited spectrum on 160M > in his country was also quite helpful, and it helped a lot in > understanding his concerns. Agreed. I believe it would be a polite thing for all the digital ops to happen around 1838, so as to not cause interference to the CW ops lower in the band. -- All rights reversed. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:41:33 -0500 From: Eric Tichansky NO3M <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Topband: RX antenna switch To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed System similar to what you mentioned regarding the gain compensation/distribution, HPF/BPFs, RX overload, PTT, and additional signal path sources and output routing (incl. looping back): http://no3m.net/index.php?page=signal-processor Has an on-board embedded MPU, but a header can be used w/ switches for manual control. 73/HNY - Eric NO3M > If it were the 'ideal' thing, there'd be a box with a matrix of switches (A x > B), gain blocks that could be put in/out of the circuit, BPFs that could be > put in and out, 'muting' of any RX output that is connected to a transmitter > that is transmitting, RX overload protection, and some general purpose inputs > to select the 'configuration'. Probably a PIC to run it, with a nice GUI app > to configure it. > > > - Brian N9ADG > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:50:48 -0500 From: Guy Olinger K2AV <[email protected]> Subject: Topband: K2AV 160m Folded Counterpoise (FCP), parts and winding for isolation transformer. To: Bob Garrett <[email protected]>, J A Ritter <[email protected]>, TopBand List <[email protected]>, [email protected] Message-ID: <CANckpc37rTGsHQ=Ly5UoU-Rfpqn-B3frgA+=1de1doxwauz...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 As requested. Parts: http://thewireman.com/wirep.html#631 #635 Double polyimide insulated #14 AWG, 15 feet. https://www.amidoncorp.com/categories/15 #12 AWG standard wall teflon tubing, 15 feet. https://www.amidoncorp.com/items/26 T300A-2 #2 material powdered iron toroid. You can also use Micrometals T300-2D, or a PAIR of Micrometals T300-2 stacked and taped together with fiberglass tape, which are the same as Amidon T300A-2. You can often find the Micrometals cores on eBay. Note: The core material, bifilar winding turn count, and core dimensions are chosen to facilitate a "simple" 160 installation that has approximately 1/4 wave wire, a toroid wound balun-sized isolation transformer feeding the coax, and a folded counterpoise attached, that delivers an impedance that is close enough to 50 ohms resistive to reasonably use regular coax as a feed. If you change the turn count, or the core material, or core dimensions, this balance for the "simple solution" is defeated, and the conditions which were tested in our two year research period no longer apply. You might substitute configurations which we put up ourselves, tested, and specifically rejected for cause. Like burned it up, was lossy, wouldn't stay tuned, was worse than the original antenna, etc, etc You can't use a stack of smaller diameter cores with the same total of A sub L numbers because you can't get the required 20 bifilar turns on the inside diameter of the smaller cores. 20 turns fills up the inside diameter of the T300x-x form factor. If you don't use 20 turns, then you will get less inductive reactance to cancel the FCP's capacitive reactance for the simple installation and need more wire in the radiator to compensate. Dropping only one turn on the core will add 12 or 13 feet to the "pruned" length for resonance you would have had otherwise. The #2 powdered iron core material has been very carefully chosen for 1.8 MHz QRP and QRO, drawing on advice and published work by W2FMI. Do not substitute ferrite or other powdered iron materials. #2 powdered iron cores are always painted red and easily identified. A core without paint or a different color will not work. Winding: First, have a look on W0UCE's site for a good picture of one of these correctly done . (Pix worth 1000 words and all that...) http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html Scroll down for the pictures. Note the appearance of the bifilar pair when done right. Think of the bifilar pair as an exotic "zip cord". You will be winding the PAIR as if you were winding with zip cord. The professionally wound version from Balun Designs with enclosure and hardware can be seen at: http://www.balundesigns.com/servlet/the-108/1-cln-1-High-Isolation-Balun/Detail Cut wire and tubing in half and slip the wire inside the tubing to create a pair of parallel 7.5 feet teflon-sleeved wires. Some find it easier to handle the wires in winding if you tape them together. Tightly wind twenty bifilar turns around the core. This will use all the space in the inner diameter. Keep the bifilar pair turns separate and uniformly spaced on the outside. ALL the wires should be laying flat on the toroid, with NO twist flips where the wires do an "over-under". IMPORTANT: When properly connected there is NO connection between the antenna/FCP side and the coax side. CAUTION: If you get that WRONG when you hook it up, you will STILL be able to hear on it, but the system won't work right and you will loose valuable dB's. !!! VERIFY THE SEPARATION !!! with an ohmmeter BEFORE you start pruning the antenna wire or hurling electronic curses at dog, family, neighbors, or me. To wind one of these for a 16+16 version FCP for 80 meters, and you are doing the "simple" version with 67 feet or so radiator above the FCP, evenly space *fifteen* bifilar turns around the toroid. 73, and I'm looking forward to a lot more 160 QSO's in the contests, Guy K2AV On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Bob Garrett <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Guy, > > When the dust settles, will you post a list of parts and sources so we can > duplicate this antenna and the unique matching network? 73, Bob K3UL > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:54:12 -0500 From: Guy Olinger K2AV <[email protected]> Subject: Topband: Folded counterpoise, recent before and after stories To: TopBand List <[email protected]> Message-ID: <CANckpc2xpvRLZUVXOVmUHpw_mgwXAWEmCjsRrBVEkBZcUF6-=a...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 K5AF lives in San Antonio on a 75' x 100' corner lot. His general purpose antenna is a tuned doublet that starts at the corner light post and goes across his roof to a neighbor's tree in the opposite corner. His highest tree is 40', all of them having been fresh-planted 5' saplings when he moved in. Although he can easily tune the doublet in different configurations to 160, his results on the doublet at 100 watts have been considerably less than encouraging. He has installed an FCP along the 75' back fence and has a mostly vertical run up to 40 feet and then toward the front with a miscellaneous route to get natural resonance with FCP+isolation transformer+wire. So basically he is FCP and 40' vertical and rest low wire. A couple nights ago, when the band was nicely open, 0430-0500Z he ran CQ's and let RBN follow everything, doublet, then FCP/vert, then doublet. Here's the results, best spot strength per RBN on antenna for the period. W3LPL was the only one that was double faded on FCP. Doublet before and doublet afterward were comparable. Paul is still working on the antenna to reduce induction to stuff on his lot and is not done. At his power level, on a "postage stamp" lot with minimal antenna possibilities, adding 7 dB is huge. K5AF RBN spots. San Antonio, TX RBN Doublet FCP Vert Diff Loc K3LR 16 dB 26 dB 10 PA N0TA 19 dB 25 dB 6 CO K8ND 17 dB 24 dB 7 OH WZ7I 14 dB 23 dB 9 PA KM3T 6 dB 21 dB 15 NH WA7LNW 15 dB 21 dB 6 NV NY3A 8 dB 17 dB 9 PA NC7J 7 dB 12 dB 5 UT N4ZR 5 dB 8 dB 3 WV W3LPL 6 dB 6 dB 0 MD AVERAGE DIFF: 7 dB Unpaired readings: WE4S 17 dB - - GA KS4XQ 7 dB - - SC W4AX - 26 dB - GA W4KAZ did a more direct comparison. He took the antenna off a rig and just let it sit in a corner of the shack, and noted the RX strength of 100 watts on 20+ misc length on ground radials. Then he switched to the FCP, took up all the radials and hit the key again. He had to reduce the power to 20 watts to get to the prior RX strength. Again 7 dB. This was verified with RBN's vs local hams where prior diffs were known. In Keith's case, the only available interpretation was that switching to the FCP and isolation transformer removed 7 dB of induced ground loss, whatever the method of induction, where ever it was. Whether one wants to deal with an FCP or not, what should be more ominous is that if you do not have a DENSE and UNIFORM radial field, you are most likely dealing with quite more loss than you think. Models do NOT predict this measured magnitude of change. They seem to severely underestimate ground induction loss. We will keep up the stories as they come in. 73, Guy ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Topband mailing list [email protected] http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband End of Topband Digest, Vol 108, Issue 87 **************************************** _______________________________________________ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
