on 1/5/2001 6:58 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why do I have the feeling you are always "against"?
> Is "being constructive" OUT?
Is making suggestions for work for other people to do considered being
constructive? In a volunteer organization, I don't think so.
> Why don't YOU do that documentation work?
> - Are you busy?
> - Have other priorities?
Because it isn't my itch to scratch. The software works fine for me and I
understand it perfectly well.
> Guess what: me too! We both have that same problem, but:
> - I still make time for some suggestions;
Well defined proposals are helpful (fyi, someone is working on the
mod_rewrite module for Tomcat)
Code is helpful.
Suggestions aren't helpful.
> - You still make time to flame everybody!
I make time to correct. I haven't flamed you at all. You are just on the
defensive over an email and someone you have never even met face to face.
How weird is that.
I'm simply having a conversation.
> I don't have to, but since you displayed so much concern about the
> way I spend my time, I am going to tell you what my priorities are.
To bad you didn't just spend your time documenting things. :-( I could care
diddly about your priorities as I'm sure you could care diddly about mine.
:-)
> For me, at the moment, it makes much more sense to invest on Taglibs
> and possibly Struts:
> - it is what I see serving better the current needs of my employer;
> - it is what I can do faster and where I can be more productive;
> - it makes sense to contribute them to Jakarta afterwards and my
> managers will possibly agree with that.
Good for you!
> Does this prevent me from defending or suggesting things that can
> turn Tomcat into something better for me and others?
Like I said already. Suggestions are not helpful. It is like putting the job
on someone else shoulders.
Telling us that we need more documentation isn't anything that we don't
already know. Duh.
> (And, for me, the documentation is no longer a big problem.)
Good, so you have a good understanding of things. Then take that and
document it for others.
> Notice that I am not demanding this or that. I am aware that Tomcat
> is (mostly) volunteer work.
Ah. But you are demanding. You are saying things like:
> Tomcat has the same problem as Struts and most Open Source
> projects (it is not just an Apache thing):
> * NOT ENOUGH DOCUMENTATION *
In case you missed it UPPERCASE and ** is like yelling at us saying that we
need more documentation.
If you had said something like:
"The Tomcat project needs documentation in the following areas: blah blah
blah."
And then taken the time to actually list those areas and maybe even start a
table of contents, as a html page, then, that would have been helpful. We
could have checked that into CVS and let people start to fill out the
missing areas as needed.
But simply stating * NOT ENOUGH DOCUMENTATION * is totally worthless and
degenerative to the people who work on this project.
> But is it bad that I post constructive suggestions?
It wasn't constructive. You simply ranted on about how we don't have any
documentation and how newbies need more documentation. What is constructive
about that?
> If documentation could be improved a bit, without much effort and
> just a hint of method, then why not?
I agree. Give a hint.
> It is not even something fancy - just remembering to spend some extra
> 5 minutes of effort at the right moment:
> - I suggested turning project specs and proposals that are posted
> here (and in other Apache projects) into documentation in the
> distribution (of this and those other projects).
Wow. That is such a GREAT suggestion! I'm surprised that no one here would
have ever though of such a mind blowing improvement! I will work as quickly
as I can do go over all of the archives and implement exactly what you say!
Would that have been a better response?
> I am not even asking great documentation as FreeMarker has (and it is
> GPL). Just posts turned into documents with basic editing.
Lol. I thought FM's documented sucked.
> Why doesn't this make sense to you?
Cause you didn't even state that the first time. Why doesn't that make sense
to you? :-)
> Don't you notice Tomcat documentation problems? How can you defend
> that someone should read the code to understand how to configure
> something?
I know all about them, but like I said. I don't have the itch. You seem to
do though.
You have this assumption that myself or other people on this list are
supposed to jump up and suddenly take your earth shaking ideas and implement
them. Not.
> Do you want to draw a line on what is good documentation?
> Look at FreeMarker. Doesn't even have to look so nice.
That documentation sucks and the project is dead. What is to envy about
that?
> Some of the things that Tomcat is said to support (like SSL, embedding
> and extending Tomcat) require a load of investigation FROM EACH PERSON
> that tries to use it because there is not even a good pointer on where
> to start digging.
Yep. Sucks doesn't it? Why don't you contribute some documentation to help
improve it?
> And now, the three hopes I have for you:
> 1. I hope you can still see the value of plain English after all that
> heavy source code reading;
Given that english is my only language...
> 2. I hope that you can still respect newbies - that you didn't
> already forget that you were once one;
I don't respect people who expect to be spoon fed.
> 3. I hope that this is not a revenge - that you do not want others to
> learn things the hard way just because you did so.
Definitely not.
> I am learning the hard way for (already!) a bit more than a decade
> and I keep trying to ease the way to others. Since you are on Open
> Source for longer than me and you are supposed to know the culture
> better, I am going to ask you:
> - Am I wrong?
Yes.
> - Do you thing I should say "Read the fucking source code!!!" to
> anybody that asks me about the open source stuff we use?
No. I will repeat it all one more time:
You have an itch. Scratch it.
Suggestions about the obvious are worthless. We already know the problems.
Code is useful.
Documentation is useful.
Contributions are appreciated.
Please don't respond again unless it is documented.
-jon
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