________________________________
Van: tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org <tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org>
Verzonden: zondag 11 juni 2023 01:08
Aan: tagging@openstreetmap.org <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Onderwerp: Tagging Digest, Vol 165, Issue 8
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Today's Topics:
1. road accident memorials (Anne-Karoline Distel)
2. Re: road accident memorials (Martin Koppenhoefer)
3. Re: road accident memorials (Anne-Karoline Distel)
4. Re: road accident memorials (Greg Troxel)
5. Re: road accident memorials (Anne-Karoline Distel)
6. Re: road accident memorials (Marc_marc)
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 15:40:46 +0100
From: Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadis...@web.de>
To: OSM Tagging <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: [Tagging] road accident memorials
Message-ID: <63f2b3c0-f333-8a90-6870-6ed24ab31...@web.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I would like to be able to differentiate memorials for road traffic
accidents from other memorials along a road, because I'd really like to
know how many there are. Sometimes, it will be difficult to say without
local knowledge whether it was that or maybe if the family uses
"accident" as a euphemism for suicide, of course. I don't know if
wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for example, which
IMHO it shouldn't be.
On a side note, I'd also like to tag memorials for pets different than
for events and people. They're not terribly common in public places, but
I just mapped this one: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10967549672
and there are two in the Army Barracks in Kilkenny for dogs as well (one
not mapped yet, because it's fairly new).
I can't find anything for "pet" or "accident" on taginfo.
Anne
Hi Anne,
There are several problems/remarks for making such memorials visible or
viewable on a roadside.
Traffic is too busy to spend or giving attention time to memorials while
driving along.
The old memorials would just be visible by walkers.
The long grasses make a cover for the memorials.
The mourning families stated that they want a warning alongside the road to
prevent more death its contra dictional, a memorial on a cemetery would do as
well.
You’ll never be able to read nor understand when driving or passing by the
memorial.
And above all, they are / should be temporarily by permissive rules. Without
permission to visit along the roadside, it attrack’s to much attention,a
gathering on the banks alongside the road.
Who’s is keeping up with the none excysting ones ?
Just like flowerbeds are there a fortnight as being on farmland, the product
are bulbs and they grow best without flowers on top.
Greetz
Ps and what; if the accident was between a crossing tree and a motor vehicle ?
Just suicide, youll never know ?
So it is mappable but should we want it ?
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 18:01:17 +0200
From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
<tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials
Message-ID: <604202b5-7b1d-467e-aea1-0713e4857...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
sent from a phone
> On 10 Jun 2023, at 17:58, Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadis...@web.de> wrote:
>
> I don't know if
> wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for example, which
> IMHO it shouldn't be
agreed. One tag I am aware of in this context is memorial=ghost_bike
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/memorial=ghost_bike#overview
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 20:53:07 +0100
From: Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadis...@web.de>
To: Greg Troxel <g...@lexort.com>
Cc: OSM Tagging <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials
Message-ID: <ad263361-c79f-1d80-fca9-88e4e2d3a...@web.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 10/06/2023 20:33, Greg Troxel wrote:
> Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadis...@web.de> writes:
>
>> I would like to be able to differentiate memorials for road traffic
>> accidents from other memorials along a road, because I'd really like to
>> know how many there are. Sometimes, it will be difficult to say without
>> local knowledge whether it was that or maybe if the family uses
>> "accident" as a euphemism for suicide, of course.
> In general I don't think it's possible to separate "accident" from
> "suicide" fully for "motor vehicle crashes", just as it isn't possible
> to separate "overdose" from "suicide" for opiod deaths.
>
> I think OSM has to tag what is, and not evaluate things that can't
> really be evaluated. In the northeast US, you find crosses along the
> road, often simple white wood that do not necessarily endure more than a
> year or so, and occasional metal permanent ones. And, often a cross
> with flowers that is there for 1 to several months - the same thing, but
> sometimes too brief to end up mapped (not because it shouldn't be, just
> because it has to last long enough for someone who maps these to notice
> and get to it).
I would say that memorial:cause=traffic_accident would leave the options
open whether the victim intended to die or not.
>
>> I don't know if wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for
>> example, which IMHO it shouldn't be.
> I don't follow. If there is a cross by the road, are you saying that
> depending on the beliefs of the people that put it up about cause, then
> it should or shouldn't be tagged wayside_cross?
A historic=wayside_cross does not mark the spot; it is not left in a
location where someone is buried or died. It is a way to make sure the
soul of the deceased gets into heaven easier by having passers by pray
for the soul. You don't have to believe in it, but that's what people
believed back then (and maybe some still do). I didn't grow up with this
practise, but this is what Catholic people did in Early Modern Ireland.
Not every cross by the wayside is a wayside cross. Like so many things
in the historic category, the tagging is a bit messy. Some examples in
my area: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vVq
I guess I have a topic for a new video... There are a couple more
surviving in County Kilkenny, but I want to keep some work for the video.
Anne
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 15:57:40 -0400
From: Greg Troxel <g...@lexort.com>
To: Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadis...@web.de>
Cc: OSM Tagging <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials
Message-ID: <rmipm63145n....@s1.lexort.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadis...@web.de> writes:
> I would say that memorial:cause=traffic_accident would leave the options
> open whether the victim intended to die or not.
OK but IMHO traffic_crash is better. 'accident' is an assertion of no
blame, and there are messy issues of bad luck and negligence. crash is
objectively what happened.
>>> I don't know if wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for
>>> example, which IMHO it shouldn't be.
>> I don't follow. If there is a cross by the road, are you saying that
>> depending on the beliefs of the people that put it up about cause, then
>> it should or shouldn't be tagged wayside_cross?
>
> A historic=wayside_cross does not mark the spot; it is not left in a
> location where someone is buried or died. It is a way to make sure the
> soul of the deceased gets into heaven easier by having passers by pray
> for the soul. You don't have to believe in it, but that's what people
> believed back then (and maybe some still do). I didn't grow up with this
> practise, but this is what Catholic people did in Early Modern Ireland.
> Not every cross by the wayside is a wayside cross. Like so many things
> in the historic category, the tagging is a bit messy. Some examples in
> my area: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vVq
>
> I guess I have a topic for a new video... There are a couple more
> surviving in County Kilkenny, but I want to keep some work for the video.
I see; that's different. In the US, one typically finds crosses by the
road where presumably the crash occured and nobody thinks it is
necessarily the location of death. But again, do these have labels?
How do you tell? Definitely a good thing to explain to everyone.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 21:49:24 +0100
From: Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadis...@web.de>
To: Greg Troxel <g...@lexort.com>
Cc: OSM Tagging <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials
Message-ID: <d1bf9994-e34c-0245-103d-42675596f...@web.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 10/06/2023 20:57, Greg Troxel wrote:
> Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadis...@web.de> writes:
>
>> I would say that memorial:cause=traffic_accident would leave the options
>> open whether the victim intended to die or not.
> OK but IMHO traffic_crash is better. 'accident' is an assertion of no
> blame, and there are messy issues of bad luck and negligence. crash is
> objectively what happened.
Very true.
>
>>>> I don't know if wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for
>>>> example, which IMHO it shouldn't be.
>>> I don't follow. If there is a cross by the road, are you saying that
>>> depending on the beliefs of the people that put it up about cause, then
>>> it should or shouldn't be tagged wayside_cross?
>> A historic=wayside_cross does not mark the spot; it is not left in a
>> location where someone is buried or died. It is a way to make sure the
>> soul of the deceased gets into heaven easier by having passers by pray
>> for the soul. You don't have to believe in it, but that's what people
>> believed back then (and maybe some still do). I didn't grow up with this
>> practise, but this is what Catholic people did in Early Modern Ireland.
>> Not every cross by the wayside is a wayside cross. Like so many things
>> in the historic category, the tagging is a bit messy. Some examples in
>> my area: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vVq
>>
>> I guess I have a topic for a new video... There are a couple more
>> surviving in County Kilkenny, but I want to keep some work for the video.
> I see; that's different. In the US, one typically finds crosses by the
> road where presumably the crash occured and nobody thinks it is
> necessarily the location of death. But again, do these have labels?
> How do you tell? Definitely a good thing to explain to everyone.
We have loads of those as well, but they should be differentiated from
modern cross shape memorials which do "mark the spot". And not all
memorials for crashes/ accidents are cross shaped:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8243154427
Anne
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 00:50:59 +0200
From: Marc_marc <marc_m...@mailo.com>
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials
Message-ID: <c707a503-2c86-1646-7125-b722b4ef0...@mailo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Le 10.06.23 ? 16:40, Anne-Karoline Distel a ?crit?:
> I would like to be able to differentiate memorials for road traffic
> accidents from other memorials along a road
memorial:conflict=road_accident
> On a side note, I'd also like to tag memorials for pets different than
> for events and people.
subject=*
Regards,
MArc
------------------------------
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