On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote: > it is you who knows the cukrászda best. You must decide (together with your > fellow local mappers who also know the feature), whether it is a subtype of > one of the established tags, or whether it is so different that it must get a > new tag. People from England or Italy can not help significantly you to make > this decision, because we do not know the feature well. We can only help you > by asking questions and trying to explain what the implications and meaning > of the established tags are (and only if we can concur on a common meaning > ;-) which is not a given, as shown by this discussion). You will also almost > everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a lot of > things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this particular > discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving interpretations of > established tags that didn't find other supporting voices. >
Indeed your input is highly valuable. In parallel to this thread, your answers have sparked a constructive 6th/7th wave of discussions in Hungarian on matrix. It's not that we disagree within the community, it's that we honestly don't know the _right_ answer. We're trying to dig deeply into the linguistic, historical and cultural aspects as well to better understand the constraints. It's a major blocker that the most important key words do not have proper translation between English and Hungarian, or their approximate translations misleadingly map to different concepts or subsets of substantances (sütemény, péksütemény, cukrászsütemény, édesség, cukrász, torta, desszert, ...). We're trying to avoid this by trying to come up with new compound words and/or generalizing by categories. > I think this is what we all are striving for here, the problem is that it is > not obvious. It is clear we ideally want to be able to exactly understand > from the tags what kind of object it is, but if have too many different types > on the top level, it will make it difficult to use the data (you must know > all these tags and look for them in order to show them to your users), while > if we have too few top level tags, people must also look for all the subtags > in order not to get a wrong impression. We are looking for a "middle way", > and what makes sense in this regard is seen differently by different people. > That's why we are discussing here. > So we're just now working with another member of our community in attempting to come up with a schema where we could "micromap" the type of desserts served by category. This direction may allow for using more general top level amenity and shop tags, although I personally don't see an existing one that would be an _optimal_ choice. If not done right, its maintenance burden may also be higher than anticipated. In general, a new top level tag is sometimes understood to be a shorthand for a bunch of other subtags (existing or virtual ones), so we'll see what kind of redundancy this would introduce. We're still doodling about this, but will keep you posted. >> From a perspective of local knowledge, I had to point out the >> workaround of using amenity=cafe + cuisine=* for many years now to >> well experienced OSM editors with thousands of edits around the world, >> because they wouldn't have otherwise thought of this (but then they >> also disagreed with this concept). How would I then expect a novice >> mapper or a navigation user to have figured this out then? > > by documenting it in the wiki, also in your language > So basically my argument here was that it is good practice to document tags and useful combinations (I also do that as a hobby), we should in general prefer not to use tag wordings that aren't "obvious" given basic knowledge of English. Hence, I agree that we should keep it simple and to give at least a fair chance for international users to understand a POI without local knowledge. > (and potentially convincing the makers of tagging presets to cater for it). > At some point in time, a well intentioned translator caused great confusion by mixing shop=confectionery and shop=pastry, but we fixed it promptly. I agree that after we agreed on a schema that could work across borders, it would be a great benefit to the mapping community to make presets for it. > (I have seen there are quite some hits in the wiki already for this word). > Yes, as mentioned, we're having this FAQ all the time, and hence at least we started to document the dirty workarounds that we'd been using up to now to be consistent locally, but this consistency breaks down around the world (and with the sit-in kind of cukrászda). _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
