On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 7:51 PM Dave Swarthout <daveswarth...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Well, I'll be damned. These hikers, or "hillbaggers", are using these tags > for their own purposes. Many of them could easily be derived from the ele > tag. I have no stake in whether they do that or not except to say that it > encourages others to make up tags for their own regional uses. In New York > State there is a list of 46 peaks that top 4,000 feet and anyone who summits > them joins the group called "The 46ers." But nobody maps them with > 46er=yes/no because this information is immediately obvious from the ele tag.
Actually, it's the list of peaks that were thought to be above 4000 feet (and with requirements for prominence and isolation) at the time that the club was founded. Simple elevation is not enough to determine this. Because of prominence and isolation requirements, Pyramid Peak (4597 ft AMSL) is not on the list; it is considered to be a subsidiary summit of Gothics. Similarly, Little Marcy and Schofield Cobble are considered subsidiary summits of Mount Marcy, but Gray Peak squeaks in with just barely the required prominence. Moreover, it turns out in modern surveys that Mount Blake, Cliff Mountain, Nye Mountain and Couchsachraga are all less than 4000 feet AMSL, while MacNaughton Mountain tops 4000 feet but is not one of the 46. Finally, Slide Mountain (4120 feet) and Hunter Mountain (4040 feet) are excluded by being outside the Adirondack Park - they are both clearly above 4000 feet and have tremendous prominence, but they're in an entirely different range. The Catskill 35 (which has Slide and Hunter as its two tallest peaks) are another list that's locally significant. It purports to be the "35 summits above 3500 feet in the Catskills" but once again that's an oversimplification. For it, the prominence and isolation rules have been fine-tuned over the years to keep the list stable. "The Dink", south of Cornell Mountain, "Camel's Hump" west of Thomas Cole Mountain, or "Little Slide" north of Slide Mountain all are unquestionably named peaks above 3500 feet, but either are not prominent enough or are too close to a different peak. The definitions have to be tuned very finely, however, to keep Wittenberg from being considered a subsidiary summit of Cornell Mountain. Since the club's founding, only one peak has been added to the list: its name is Southwest Hunter, or Leavitt Peak, or Hill 3750, depending on what version of the list you consult. It was nameless until its inclusion on the list meant that hikers needed a name for it. (Grace Peak in the Adirondacks has a somewhat similar story, and did indeed acquire a name from being listed.) The current feeling in the club appears to be that the list should now be fixed as it stands. If it turns out, as is plausible, that the high point of Dry Brook Ridge or Millbrook Ridge tops out above 3500 feet, the sentiment appears to be that they should not be added. The Catskill 35 list also contains four summits (Slide, Blackhead, Balsam [Ulster County] and Panther) that have to be climbed twice - at least once in winter. The choice of which summits were included in that list appears to have been entirely arbitrary, and the club founders never offered an explanation. Given that the lists at this point are arbitrary, there's really no way to represent the list membership other than making up some entirely arbitrary scheme. If asked to come up with something, I'd probably put the 46 summits in a group relation and hang the name 'Adirondack 46' off that. I'd do a similar thing for the Catskill 35, but then scratch my head about how to identify the Winter Four. As it is, I use information external to OSM for rendering this area so that the list memberships can be shown - they are quite important to the local hikers, many of whom are chasing their Adirondack 46'er or Catskill 3500 Club badges. Peak-bagging is a serious sport around here! I've not tried to add the information because I eschew controversy. I know that on the 'tagging' list there are hard-liners who would even challenge adding the peaks' names to the list, on the grounds that the names for the most part cannot be observed in the field. (Look at a topo map, or ask virtually any local 'what mountain is that big one?' while pointing, and you'll get an answer, but for many of these peaks I don't think I've ever seen a sign with the name, so I've been told that in such a case the name is not verifiable!) At least Summits-on-the-Air (an Amateur Radio group that competes in communicating with operators who bring portable equipment to the summits for temporary activations) assigns reference numbers (the Adirondack list is at https://summits.sota.org.uk/region/W2/GA) so I could use a 'ref:sota' tag to label its peaks if I desired. The Adirondack 46, the Northeast 111, the Catskill 35, etc. just use the names, so that's not an option that's available to me. Since there are communities, in many parts of the world, that are interested in the local peak-bagging lists, and many references are available to verify what peaks are members of what lists, I'd be exceedingly reluctant to say, "no, you may not have that information in OSM." I'm content with using external data to drive my own rendering, but I surely understand the desire for "one-stop shopping". _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
