sent from a phone
> On 19. May 2019, at 18:30, <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> > <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> wrote: > > "The "traffic_signals" namespace is used to describe both vehicular traffic > signals and pedestrian/bicycle traffic signals, to everyone's confusion." > > This statement is simply completely factually wrong. > > a) traffic_signals is the *value* here, not the name of the tag > > b) there are 2 distinct tags to describe the presence of traffic signals for > the road way and foot/cycle way: > > highway=traffic_signals for signals controlling traffic on the road > crossing=traffic_signals for signals controlling crossing pedestrians > > "To make matters worse, it forces mappers to choose between tagging a > crossing's markings, [...], or whether it has signalization." > > Personally, I can not remember having ever seen, in my whole life, a signal > controlled pedestrian crossing that does not have road markings, excluding > cases where there are temporarily no road markings at all because they > haven't been painted yet after the road has just been laid down or resurfaced. > > And even if there should really be signal controlled crossings that on > purpose do not have any road markings, I would consider that to be basically > completely irrelevant. The presence of signals that control traffic and > pedestrian movement supersedes the meaning any road markings might have. If a > signal controlled crossing has road markings or not does not in any way > change its operation. > > Deprecating a tag that has been used almost 600000 times and has widespread > software support, just to replace it with a different tag that means exactly > the same seems somewhat insane to me, and while I can't speak for anyone > else, I can guarantee to always vote no for this. > > "Replacing crossing=island" > > I can agree with this one, but it's essentially a non-issue as this has > already been done. At most the wiki might need slight editing to make it more > clear that the use of crossing=island has been deprecated. > > "Replacing crossing=uncontrolled and crossing=zebra with crossing=marked" > > crossing=uncontrolled and crossing=zebra have been used a combined 1.25 > million times. In practical usage, they mean exactly the same thing, and they > have widespread software support already. Trying to replace them with a 3rd > value that still means exactly the same things is a classical case of > https://xkcd.com/927/ > > Looking at taginfo, there are already 168281 cases of crossing=marked right > now, so the unfortunate reality is that we already have the case of 3 > different values meaning the same thing and no matter how much you try to > dictate the usage of a particular one by fiddling with the wiki, it's > unlikely that there will ever be a day when all 3 aren't in widespread use > synonymously. > > As such the best that can be done is to slightly adjust the wiki to document > the reality that all 3 values are used synonymously. > > All this basically leaves the crossing key with the following possible values: > > no - there is no crossing possible/legal here > > unmarked - there are no road markings or traffic signals here, but this is a > place where people are generally (legally) cross the road, e.g. because of > lowered kerbs, or because the sidewalk on one side of the road stops here, or > some other indication that this is a commonly used crossing point. > > uncontrolled/zebra/marked - there are road markings, but no signals that > control traffic flow, that make it clear to both road and pedestrian traffic > that this is a designated crossing point > > traffic_signals - there are traffic signals here that control traffic flow, > it is extremely likely that there are also road markings, but their presence > or absence is irrelevant as it would not change how the crossing operates > > I think you'll find that any proposal that tries to completely throw over > this well-established tagging scheme is doomed to failure full quote, +1 thank you for taking the time to formulate a thorough reply just one remark: crossing=zebra clearly means a zebra crossing (implications for traffic may vary according to the jurisdiction), crossing=marked means _any_ marked crossing. Both will imply (from my understanding) that there are no traffic lights (for pedestrians), but the meaning may not be identical. Cheers, Martin _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
