Am 22.03.2011 16:04, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
2011/3/22 Josh Doe<j...@joshdoe.com>:
Martin,
On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 6:32 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
<dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
2011/3/21 David Paleino<da...@debian.org>:
On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:12:55 +0100, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2011/3/21 David Paleino<da...@debian.org>:
To not be misunderstood: I prefer explicit sidewalks (=separate ways)
as I wrote above. But you should not map them as if they were
independent ways.
They aren't: have you checked my proposal? They're part of the same relation
(street, or associatedStreet).
If you need a relation for every sidewalk, it is clear that you are
redefining footway, because not interpreting this relation will lead
to misunderstanding for all footways (they would be understood as
independent ways and routing would work worse then with no sidewalk
mapped at all).
Adding footway=sidewalk is not redefining highway=footway, just like
saying service=parking_aisle is not redefining highway=service, rather
it is a refinement.
I disagree here. In the case of service it is a refinement, but in the
case of footway it is not, because highway=service is the tag to use
for smaller service ways, but highway=footway is not the tag you use
for lanes (a kind of which sidewalks are), ...
Slightly disagree here:
A sidewalks is a lane for a pedestrian in a low-traffic residential road.
Towards a young child I would define a sidewalk as a way - the child
should not cross the street otherwhere than at marked and much as
possible secured crossings.
A wheelchair user will interpret the sidewalk as a separate way, not a
lane, as long as there is a curb higher than a specific treshold - and
that's the case nearly everywhere, where no marked crossing or at least
a driveway to a house is located.
I know: A healthy, perhaps a little bit tired of life adult will cross
the street wherever he wants; but a local car driver will also use the
street where we objectively have to tag access=destination to have a
shortcut.
I consider a sidewalk with the following assumptions:
1) It is intended for a sidewalk user (pedestrian, child on bike,
skater) to use the street itself for driving. Therefore there is no
constant change intended.
2) It is not allowed for a car to drive at the sidewalk (crossings
excepted). Therefore there is no constant change intended either.
But is that really a lane? Doesn't that indicate the sidewalk being a
dedicated way?
You can ask: But I can cross the street directly everywhere I want,
that's not modelled in the data by modelling explicit ways.
My answer would be: Yes, that's true. But what's the drawback of
applications here? The worst case would be miss a cut where no crossing
is present in OSM. I would like to have crossings everywhere, where
- crossings are marked (islands, zebra crossings, pedestrian traffic
signals and so on)
- it is common to cross (left and right of street intersections; where a
footway joins the sidewalk etc.) AND there is no better marked
alternative around AND it's not forbidden to cross.
...it is a tag that you use
only on independent ways. The sidewalk is already comprised in the
main road according to our data model,
Where is this data model? I would say: nobody thought about sidewalks at
creating the data model - it's not defined.
If you claim that highway=residential includes sidewalks, that's new to
me - and neither proofed nor (well) documented
and adding a separate highway=footway indicates that there is a barrier between
the footway
and the road.
There is! Ask the next wheelchair user or old man/woman with a walking
frame about the barrier a curb of normal height is for him.
To overcome this, you would have to use highway=footway
on lanes / sidewalks, what is not in accordance with the current
conventions.
Why not?
As I wrote above: there ARE arguments to define a sidewalks as a
dedicated way, and the current conventions are not common ones in this
topic.
regards
Peter
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