Hi DM,
With Xiphos 4.3.1 (latest update) when I searched TischMorph either for "δι’
ἡμερῶν", or for "δι’ ημερων", there were 2 results:
- Mark 2:1
- Acts 1:3
Search results were no different with the Greek Accents on or off. I therefore
conclude that your hunch was incorrect!
Aside:
- After an exact phrase search, both results preview correctly.
- After a Lucene fast search, both results preview really
[weirdly](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/msw6s8dl4au5z0optwm5l/Screenshot-2025-03-17-18.43.04.png?rlkey=wps1isdrh9h1atdck6r7ihbol&dl=0)
&
[weirdly](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4aiyelopdy1a1gjlpto5f/Screenshot-2025-03-17-18.44.12.png?rlkey=bc1qmql18faoti9b6o6o27qeu&dl=0)
!!! I think this should be reported to Karl K. Might it be a software bug?
Best regards,
David
Sent with [Proton Mail](https://pr.tn/ref/SWXT9A5YZ67G) secure email.
On Monday, March 17th, 2025 at 6:17 PM, DM Smith <dmsm...@crosswire.org> wrote:
> David,
> I’m not sure that the filter is only used for display. I think it may also be
> used for search. In Ancient Greek, we don’t want to have to include U+2019 as
> part of the search request, but just the letters.
>
> As a reader of NT Greek, it doesn’t bother me to have δ αρχαια rather than δ’
> αρχαια.
>
> BTW, if the filter’s code is changed and if the filter is used for searches,
> then all indexes of accented NT Greek modules will need to be rebuilt. The
> user’s search request has to be normalized in exactly the same way as the
> index was constructed.
>
> DM
>
>> On Mar 17, 2025, at 11:44 AM, David Haslam <dfh...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi DM,
>>
>> One impact is on the StatResGNT module, in which both single and double
>> left/right quotation marks have been added by the project leader.
>> Hiding Greek Accents has the bad effect of losing the end quotation mark for
>> all the level 2 quotations in the text.
>> NB. It was seeing this project that prompted me to revisit this topic.
>> It would be a real benefit to this module to make the change that I proposed.
>>
>> Further to my initial thoughts late last week, I now agree that U+2019 is
>> the right codepoint choice to mark an elision.
>> I was somewhat misled by the wrong answer given by Leo AI, which mistakenly
>> told me that it was a way to represent the iota subscript.
>> It's only since quizzing Grok AI that my thoughts have become clear. I admit
>> that I should've known better, but I'm not a classicist.
>> Yet the "category mistake" still exists - since an elision marker is not a
>> diacritic. And by definition, a Greek Accent is a diacritic!
>>
>> Making the proposed change to the filter should have a minimal effect upon
>> all the other Ancient Greek Bible modules.
>> The number of wordsthus affected in a Greek NT module is not huge!
>> There's really no downside to still displaying the "typographical
>> apostrophe".
>>
>> To illustrate, these are the only 21 words in TischMorph that end with
>> U+2019.
>>
>>> Word Count
>>> Δι’ 2
>>> Κατ’ 1
>>> δ’ 22
>>> δι’ 142
>>> καθ’ 61
>>> κατ’ 82
>>> μεθ’ 43
>>> μετ’ 132
>>> μηδ’ 1
>>> οὐδ’ 8
>>> παρ’ 59
>>> τοῦτ’ 17
>>> ἀλλ’ 220
>>> ἀνθ’ 5
>>> ἀπ’ 119
>>> ἀφ’ 44
>>> Ἀλλ’ 1
>>> ἐπ’ 143
>>> ἐφ’ 82
>>> ὑπ’ 25
>>> ὑφ’ 9
>>
>> It's now my considered view that even when the Greek accents are hidden by
>> the filter, the elision marks ought to be retained.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> David
>>
>> Sent with [Proton Mail](https://pr.tn/ref/SWXT9A5YZ67G) secure email.
>>
>> On Monday, March 17th, 2025 at 3:06 PM, DM Smith <dmsm...@crosswire.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> David, I read your Grok 3 analysis.
>>>
>>> What is the impact of not having this change? What is the impact of making
>>> the change? Is it merely presentation of is there an issue with searching
>>> too?
>>>
>>> I’ve also been reading
>>> https://corp.unicode.org/pipermail/unicode/2019-January/007563.html which
>>> was referenced in a prior recent thread on U+2019 in Ancient Greek. This is
>>> long and worth reading to understand how it might impact SWORD. The thread
>>> is initiated by James Tauber.
>>>
>>> TL;DR:
>>> U+2019 (and in older texts U+0027) in Ancient Greek was never used for
>>> quotations and is only used for elision. It is considered the recommended
>>> character for elisions.
>>> The Unicode rules (when the thread was written in January 2019) of TR29
>>> have that U+2019 is a word break when at the front or end of a word, but
>>> not within a word. It is not simply punctuation. These rules are not
>>> language aware.
>>> There is no zero width character in Unicode to join words.
>>> It is impossible for TR29 to distinguish between U+2019 used as a quotation
>>> mark and as an elision.
>>> There is no other character that is an appropriate replacement for U+2019.
>>>
>>> I haven’t yet looked at Unicode TR30 regarding folding rules as it pertains
>>> to this.
>>>
>>> In Him,
>>> DM
>>>
>>>> On Mar 17, 2025, at 8:46 AM, David Haslam <dfh...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear SWORD developers,
>>>>
>>>> I asked about this topic several years ago, and I'm no longer convinced by
>>>> what we were told back then.
>>>>
>>>> After doing further research, it's my understanding that U+2019 RIGHT
>>>> SINGLE QUOTATION MARK ought not to be hidden by this SWORD filter.
>>>>
>>>> - This codepoint is not a diacritic that modifies the previous Greek
>>>> letter. In other words, it's not a Greek accent.
>>>> - This codepoint has the Unicode properties of a punctuation mark.
>>>> - In Ancient Greek text, it's used to mark an elision, where the final
>>>> vowel of a word is omitted when the next word begins with a vowel.
>>>>
>>>> To view my research, conducted with the help of Grok 3, please visit the
>>>> following link.
>>>>
>>>> - https://grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5_43ff1922-3876-4d9a-9e42-6ae940007fd0
>>>>
>>>> I therefore recommend that SWORD developers revisit the specification for
>>>> this filter, and update it so that U+2019 is never hidden.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> Sent with [Proton Mail](https://pr.tn/ref/SWXT9A5YZ67G) secure email.
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