No matter the # of K in resolution or retina/not retina, I would aim for as much close to or even under 20 ms as an arbitrary number for VR/AR type of applications.
Sure, we don't need to get there next year, but we are heading this direction, anyway. I have read a very detail write-up of the current state of VR headsets recently, and it touch not only latency, but also the display quality and prerequisites for human eyes: https://hugo.blog/2024/03/11/vision-pro/ All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.bor...@gmail.com On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 6:00 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > Le 16/03/2024 à 20:10, Colin_Higbie via Starlink a écrit : > > Just to be clear: 4K is absolutely a standard in streaming, with that > being the most popular TV being sold today. 8K is not and likely won't be > until 80+" TVs become the norm. > > I can agree screen size is one aspect pushing the higher resolutions to > acceptance, but there are some more signs indicating that 8K is just > round the corner, and 16K right after it. > > The recording consumer devices (cameras) already do 8K recording > cheaply, since a couple of years. > > New acronyms beyond simply resolutions are always ready to come up. HDR > (high dynamic range) was such an acronym accompanying 4K, so for 8K > there might be another, bringing more than just resolution, maybe even > more dynamic range, blacker blacks, wider gamut,-for goggles, etc. for a > same screen size. > > 8K and 16K playing devices might not have a surface to exhibit their > entire power, but when such surfaces become available, these 8K and 16K > playing devices will be ready for them, whereas 4K no. > > A similar evolution is witnessed by sound and by crypto: 44KHz CD was > enough for all, until SACD 88KHz came about, then DSD64, DSD128 and > today DSD 1024, which means DSD 2048 tomorrow. And the Dolby Atmos and > 11.1 outputs. These too dont yet have the speakers nor the ears to > take advantage of, but in the future they might. In crypto, the > 'post-quantum' algorithms are designed to resist brute force by > computers that dont exist publicly (a few hundred qubit range exists, > but 20.000 qubit range computer is needed) but when they will, these > crypto algos will be ready. > > Given that, one could imagine the bandwidth and latency by a 3D 16K > DSD1024 quantum-resistant ciphered multi-party visio-conference with > gloves, goggles and other interacting devices, with low latency over > starlink. > > The growth trends (4K...) can be identified and the needed latency > numbers can be projected. > > Alex > > > The few 8K streaming videos that exist are available primarily as > YouTube curiosities, with virtually no displays on the market that support > it yet and none of the big content providers like Netflix or Disney+ > provide 8K streams. > > > > Virtually all modern streaming programming on Netflix and Disney+ is 4K > HDR. That is the standard to support. > > > > The objective quality difference to the average human eye between SD and > HD is huge and changes whether you see the shape of a face or the detailed > expression on a face. Completely different viewing experience. The > difference between HD and 4K is significant on today's larger TV displays > (not so visible on the smaller displays that populated living rooms in > prior decades). On an OLED TV (not so much on an LCD) the difference > between SDR and HDR is bigger than the difference between HD and 4K. But > because HDR generally comes with 4K and tends not to be used much on HD > streams, the real standards to contrast are HD (in SDR) and 4K in HDR. > > > > The minimum bandwidth needed to reliably provide a 4K HDR stream is > about 15Mbps. Because of the way video compression works, a simpler scene > may get by with less than 10Mbps. A complex scene (fire, falling confetti > like at the end of the Super Bowl) can push this up to near 20Mbps. > Assuming some background activity on a typical network, safest is to think > of 20Mbps as the effective minimum for 4K. Netflix says 25Mbps to add an > extra safety margin. > > > > True that latency doesn't matter much for streaming. For streaming, > unlike VoIP, video conferencing, and gaming, bandwidth is more important. > > > > VoIP, Video conferencing, and gaming drive low-latency use cases (web > browsing is also affected, but as long as the page starts to appear w/in > about 1s and has mostly completed within about 5s, users don't notice the > lag, which is why even geosync satellite Internet with its several hundred > ms latency can be acceptable for browsing). > > > > Video conferencing drives high-upload (5Mbps minimum) use cases. > > > > 4K streaming drives high-download (20Mbps per user or per stream with > some safety and overhead) use cases. > > > > These are all valid and important overall in architecting needs for an > ISP, but not all will necessarily be important to every user. > > > > Cheers, > > Colin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Starlink <starlink-boun...@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of > starlink-requ...@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 1:37 PM > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 36, Issue 20 > > > >> ... > > I think the 4K-latency discussion is a bit difficult, regardless of how > great the codecs are. > > > > For one, 4K can be considered outdated for those who look forward to 8K > and why not 16K; so we should forget 4K. 8K is delivered from space > already by a japanese provider, but not on IP. So, if we discuss TV > resolutions we should look at these (8K, 16K, and why not 3D 16K for ever > more strength testing). > > > > Second, 4K etc. are for TV. In TV the latency is rarely if ever an > issue. There are some rare cases where latency is very important in TV (I > could think of betting in sports, time synch of clocks) but they dont look > at such low latency as in our typical visioconference or remote surgery or > group music playing use-cases on Internet starlink. > > > > So, I dont know how much 4K, 8K, 16K might be imposing any new latency > requirement on starlink. > > > > Alex > > > > Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 18:21:48 +0100 > > From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petre...@gmail.com> > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC > > Message-ID: <d04bf060-54e2-4828-854e-29c7f3e3d...@gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > > > I retract the message, sorry, it is true that some teleoperation and > visioconf also use 4K. So the latency is important there too. > > > > A visioconf with 8K and 3D 16K might need latency reqs too. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >
_______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
