There is no overlap between 117.975-137 MHz and 123 - 130GHz. D-Band will work much better for links on aircraft flying above clouds, less attenuation.
> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2023 18:27:19 +0100 > From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petre...@gmail.com> > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink filings for D-Band via Tonga > Message-ID: <cd0f2602-9ce6-4b8e-94e4-481493e7a...@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Today I learn that 117.975-137 MHz is considered at ITU for aviation and > satellite [*]. > > Note that range overlaps with 'ESSAFI's 123 - 130GHz. > > Maybe it is for that purpose - in-flight entertainment(?) that starlink > requested the D-band frequencies, and not for sat-sat nor sat-gnd. > > Alex > > [*] > > "Allocation of new frequencies to the aviation industry for aeronautical > mobile satellite services (117.975-137 MHz). The new service will > enhance bi-directional communication via non-GSO satellite systems for > pilots and air traffic controllers everywhere, especially over oceanic > and remote areas." > > text quote from this URL at ITU: > > https://www.itu.int/en/mediacentre/Pages/PR-2023-12-15-WRC23-closing-ceremony.aspx?utm_source=ITU+News+Newsletter&utm_campaign=c66517f297-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_19_12_2023_ITU-NEWSLETTER&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-2f420cccc6-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&ct=t(EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_19_12_2023_ITU-NEWSLETTER_INT)&mc_cid=c66517f297&mc_eid=3ca8d7193e > > Le 06/12/2023 à 13:02, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink a écrit : >> In another context someone pointed me to spacex saying 'D-band' in >> april 2023 in this "NTIA Docket No. 230308-0068 / Docket >> NTIA-2023-0003" >> https://www.ntia.gov/sites/default/files/publications/spacex.pdf >> >> From that text, I understand it would, or could, be for sat-to-gnd. >> >> Le 23/11/2023 à 14:40, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink a écrit : >>> >>> Le 17/11/2023 à 23:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit : >>>> >>>> Right. Word from the Tongan government's MEIDECC is that it's D band >>>> as per the filing and that the reports on W band are wrong. >>>> >>> Can MEIDECC point me to the precise place at the ITU filing that says >>> it's D band? Thank you! >>> >>> I could not find the word 'D-band' or 'D band' in the 'ESIAFI >>> application file ("'ESIAFI II API-A(1).mdb" at ITU >>> https://www.itu.int/ITU-R/space/asreceived/Publication/DisplayPublication/53068) >>> >>> People nominate bands in various ways. As an example of a potential >>> confusion, there is this other wikipedia image that shows the freqs >>> in question (123-ish, 170-ish GHz) being called 'EHF' by ITU and 'W' >>> by IEEE. Further to the confusion, the diagram says that the EU, >>> NATO and US ECM (not sure what is ECM) call 'D' band something >>> around 2 GHz or so, which is much lower than this 123-ish, 170-ish >>> GHz. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_spectrum#/media/File:Frq_Band_Comparison.png >>> >>> I will look later at maybe joining that ITU group to ask it there as >>> well. >>> >>> Alex >>> >>>> Beyond that, they're not authorised to say anything except that yes, >>>> it's a genuine filing. >>>> >>>> I don't think Tonga is a likely launch base (no large tracts of land >>>> to launch a rocket from, except as some locals would probably tell >>>> you, from the driveway of a certain royal residence). Who knows. >>>> >>>> I'd also say that SpaceX filings to the FCC at least have a track >>>> history of being superseded by the next filing a few weeks later >>>> with completely different parameters. Whether that's just rapid >>>> prototyping at SpaceX or whether they're deliberately designed as a >>>> groundhog version of April Fool's Day for the competition's lawyers >>>> to keep them spend money on litigation while SpaceX spends on >>>> innovation is anyone's guess. Similarly, having slept over it, the >>>> Tongan story could be a SpaceX attempt at establishing a "flag of >>>> convenience" operation, or it could simply be another of Elon's >>>> pranks to whip us and the media all up into a frenzy to keep people >>>> talking about his enterprises. >>>> >>>> On 17/11/2023 11:43 pm, Ulrich Speidel wrote: >>>>> >>>>> OK, so this seems to be related to a somewhat bigger development >>>>> that Starlink is pushing through Tonga as the regulatory authority: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/175ttvz/spacex_files_29988satellite_wband_network_using/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://www.spaceintelreport.com/spacex-files-29988-satellite-w-band-network-using-kingdom-of-tonga-as-regulatory-home/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ESIAFI 1 was bought by Tonga - it was the old COMSTAR 4 satellite >>>>> and named after their women's rugby team. >>>>> >>>>> Quite why they've chosen Tonga as regulatory home - no idea. Maybe >>>>> because they think Tonga owes them a favour. Currently trying to >>>>> find out more - stay tuned. >>>>> >>>>> On 17/11/2023 6:29 am, David Fernández via Starlink wrote: >>>>>> Hi Alex, >>>>>> >>>>>> "A person on twitter seems to be saying this filing is precisely the >>>>>> filing that spacex did at FCC" >>>>>> >>>>>> Would you mind linking to that tweet, if it is public? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 14:27:03 +0100 >>>>>> > From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petre...@gmail.com> >>>>>> > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink filings for D-Band via Tonga >>>>>> > Message-ID: <805d52ce-b517-49b9-a053-8306cd20b...@gmail.com> >>>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Towards clarification, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The .mdb file of the ITU filing can be read with Excel (tab Data -> >>>>>> > leftmost button 'Access'). The .mdb is on the web page of the ITU >>>>>> > filing, at the bottom of the page. >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://www.itu.int/ITU-R/space/asreceived/Publication/DisplayPublication/53068 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > It might be that this 'ESIAFI II' is just a name because of some >>>>>> reason. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > There are some interesting dates like '06/03/2023', '13/03/2023' >>>>>> and >>>>>> > '20/03/2023' and '6/10/2023'. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > There is much data about orbits, powers, beams that I dont know >>>>>> how to >>>>>> > interpret. I would need the precise description of the database >>>>>> format, >>>>>> > but I dont know where to get it from. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The frequencies are listed, as I interpret these fields: 123 GHz >>>>>> - 130 >>>>>> > GHz centered on 126.5 GHz, 158.5-164 c 161.25 and 167-174.5 c >>>>>> 170.75. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > About D-band: I am not sure what is precisely a 'D band' and I >>>>>> think >>>>>> > that discussion about bands is very complicated. I know there is >>>>>> > wikipedia page about it, yes. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > A person on twitter seems to be saying this filing is precisely the >>>>>> > filing that spacex did at FCC; but comparing the numbers shows some >>>>>> > differences: total sats per plane differ at some altitudes like >>>>>> at 525km >>>>>> > altitude: ITU says 3600 sats whereas FCC says 3360 sats. There >>>>>> can be >>>>>> > speculations as to why they differ as there can be errors of >>>>>> various >>>>>> > people including myself. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The person on twitter tells that ITU filing is in this table, >>>>>> but I dont >>>>>> > know how he generated it. Not sure whether he made some syntax >>>>>> error. >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> Altitude (km) Inclination (degrees) Satellites per Plane Planes >>>>>> >> Total Satellites >>>>>> >> 340 53 110 48 5280 >>>>>> >> 345 46 110 48 5280 >>>>>> >> 350 38 110 48 5280 >>>>>> >> 360 96.9 120 30 3600 >>>>>> >> 525 53 120 28 3600 [nota by me: FCC says 3360 and not 3600, see >>>>>> >> table below] >>>>>> >> 530 43 120 28 3600 >>>>>> >> 535 33 120 28 3600 >>>>>> >> 604 148 12 12 144 >>>>>> >> 614 115.7 18 18 324 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I found this earlier FCC document has this table at this URL >>>>>> > https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-22-91A1.pdf (not sure >>>>>> > whether it is the most authoritative, but at least the mathematics >>>>>> > 28*120 at altitude 525 does make sense to be 3360). >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> Altitude (km) Inclination (degrees) Orbital Planes sats/plane >>>>>> Total sats >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 340 53 48 110 5280 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 345 46 48 110 5280 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 350 38 48 110 5280 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 360 96.9 30 120 3600 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 525 53 28 120 3360 [nota by me: >>>>>> >> 28*120 == 3360 indeed] >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 530 43 28 120 3360 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 535 33 28 120 3360 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 604 148 12 12 144 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> 614 115.7 18 18 324 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Alex >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Le 16/11/2023 à 10:30, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink a écrit : >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Le 15/11/2023 à 16:48, David Fernández via Starlink a écrit : >>>>>> >>> I have got news about the recent filing by Starlink for the >>>>>> use of >>>>>> >>> frequencies in D-band: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> https://www.itu.int/ITU-R/space/asreceived/Publication/DisplayPublication/53068 >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> This has been done via Tonga, not the USA, and is for both, >>>>>> uplink and >>>>>> >>> downlink frequencies, although only downlink seems to be >>>>>> allocated now >>>>>> >>> for satellite use. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Thanks for the pointer. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> It is the first time I hear about this 'ESIAFI II' >>>>>> constellation. I >>>>>> >> understand it is a different thing than the starlink existing >>>>>> >> constellation. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> It adds to the list of plans of LEO Internet constellations >>>>>> (starlink, >>>>>> >> kuiper, oneweb etc.) >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Alex >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Regards, >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> David >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>> -- >>>>> **************************************************************** >>>>> Dr. Ulrich Speidel >>>>> >>>>> School of Computer Science >>>>> >>>>> Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >>>>> >>>>> The University of Auckland >>>>> u.spei...@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ >>>>> **************************************************************** _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
