Hi Alex, Thank you for the further detail, my apologies if I misunderstand your line of inquiry. I had interpreted it to mean that you were still not convinced it was native from the perspective of the end-user visible components.
You are right that there may be some IPv6-in-IPv4 encapsulation occurring within the Starlink network that is undetectable to end-users. That said I would be surprised if that was the case but as you highlight can't say conclusively, not having inside knowledge as to their architecture. If it helps, the latency and throughput I have measured of IPv4 vs IPv6 on Starlink is comparable, so if encapsulation is occurring it doesn't appear to be having a noticeable performance impact. Regards, Steven On Tue, 12 Dec 2023, at 9:22 PM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Le 12/12/2023 à 03:43, Steven a écrit : >> Thanks for this reference that explicitly states it is IPv6 native. >> >> https://support.starlink.com/?topic=1192f3ef-2a17-31d9-261a-a59d215629f4 is >> another Starlink resource that confirms that a /56 is provided. This one >> doesn't explicitly mention native, but as mentioned I am confident it is. > > Thanks for the pointer. It clarifies indeed almost all my questions > about IPv6 to starlink end users. It is clear about that /56 to end > users. You also provided confirmation that is with DHCPv6-PD, and not > tunnelbroker nor 6to4. This is already very good. > > What I further asked (is IPv6 encapsulated in IPv4?) might probably not > be within the reach of non-starlink administrators, not visible to > starlink end users. Sorry for having given the impression that I might > doubt the skilfullness. > > For example, in 3GPP networks, it is also said, and generally agreed by > very skilled persons, that almost all IPv6 is provided as native IPv6. > In that context, it means that the packets from smartphone to a core > network entity are not encapsulated in IPv4. But, it is also agreed that > within that core network, that IPv6 is encapsulated in the GTP protocol, > which is an UDP/IPv4 protocol. This encapsulation of IPv6 in IPv4 is > invisible to end users, even if the encapsulation is there. > > For 3GPP, the use of GTP is very much dedicated to supporting mobility - > a user keeps a same IP address while changing base stations and S-GWs or > SGSNs. In starlink, on the contrary, it is probably not the case that > the GTP protocol is used for mobility (I dont know?), because starlink > says that the IP address might change during mobility (that URL you > point to says "Our system is dynamic where moving the Starlink to > another location [...] may cause the public IP to change."); so maybe > IPv6 is not encapped in UDPv4. Still, another role of GTP in 3GPP is > that of providing a notion of 'circuit', for needs such as AAA: one such > 'circuit' is associated to one authenticated and billed user. And > starlink users _are_ authenticated and billed, too. Thus, one might > wonder what other than 3GPP's GTP protocol is starlink using to provide > that notion of 'circuit'-per-user. Maybe that starlink-circuit protocol > is using tunnels, and that tunnel might be an IPv4 tunnel; it might also > be an IPv6 tunnel. Maybe it is using MPLS. Maybe something else. > > It is worth considering about standards work, interoperability with > others, a probable NTN-TN convergence, and similar. > > Alex > >> >> Cheers, >> Steven >> >> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023, at 1:29 PM, J Pan wrote: >>> yes. https://starlink-enterprise-guide.readme.io/docs/ip-addresses >>> "Starlink is IPv6 native network. Using IPv6 is more flexible and >>> future-proof." starlink has greatly improved tech docs >>> -- >>> J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), p...@uvic.ca, >>> Web.UVic.CA/~pan >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 5:10 PM Steven Honson via Starlink >>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>> Hi Alex, >>>> >>>> As an experienced network engineer with extensive experience with IPv6, >>>> I'm confident this is native IPv6. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Steven >>>> >>>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023, at 2:30 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>>>> Steven, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the clarifications. It is indeed very advantageous to use >>>>> DHCPv6-PD from a Client in home to starlink Server, and obtain a /56. >>>>> >>>>> But to be native IPv6, it would need the IPv6 packets to travel natively >>>>> (sit directly on the link layer) between home and starlink network. If >>>>> these IPv6 packets are encapsulate in IPv4, then there would be a risk >>>>> of additional latency compared to v4. >>>>> >>>>> A possible way to find out whether it's IPv6 native (and hence no >>>>> additional latency) is to browse speedtest.net from an IPv4-only client >>>>> vs from an IPv6-only client. An IPv6-only Windows client can be made by >>>>> unchecking the IPv4 box in interface Properties window. >>>>> >>>>> Ideally, if it is IPv6 native, the latency reported by speedtest.net is >>>>> approximatively the same on IPv4 vs on IPv6 (sometimes the IPv6 latency >>>>> is even lower than on IPv4). If the latency reported on IPv6 is higher >>>>> than on IPv4 it could be for many reasons, and one of them could be that >>>>> IPv6 is not native, but encapsulated in IPv4. The IPv4 encapsulating >>>>> endpoint could be on Dishy. >>>>> >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>> Le 08/12/2023 à 13:24, Steven a écrit : >>>>>> Alexandre, >>>>>> >>>>>>> Are you sure the DHCPv6-PD server is in Starlink network and not on the >>>>>>> MikroTik router? >>>>>> That would be quite the unusual setup, and even so would require that I >>>>>> obtain said /56 from elsewhere (such as via a tunnel) to then delegate >>>>>> back to myself... >>>>>> >>>>>>> It could be that the MikroTik router runs tunnelbroker, obtains a /56 >>>>>>> from HE, splits that /56 into multiple /64s and puts it on the DHCPv6-PD >>>>>>> local server config files. >>>>>> I am confident this is not the case since I configured these routers >>>>>> from scratch. >>>>>> >>>>>>> It could also be that the DHCPv6-PD server is run on the Dishy. >>>>>> It is unlikely that it is on the Dishy, as the latency to the DHCPv6 >>>>>> servers IP address, as well as the first IP hop, indicates the usual >>>>>> Ground->Space->Ground latency I'd expect. >>>>>> >>>>>>> It could also be that the DHCPv6-PD server is run on the starlink ground >>>>>>> network: maybe on the teleport, maybe deeper on the starlink network. >>>>>> Yes, this is the most likely place they are running this, likely the PoP >>>>>> you are being routed through. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you know the IPv6 address of your DHCPv6-PD Server? >>>>>> The DHCPv6 server address is a Starlink IPv6 address, the same one as my >>>>>> default gateway (`2406:2d40:xxx:xxx::1`). The /56 I am being allocated >>>>>> is also from the same /32 as this DHCPv6 server, with the /32 being >>>>>> 2406:2d40::/32, which you'll note is allocated to Starlink. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Steven >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
