Very much so. If we are talking about integrating Starlink (and similar furture
networks) with ground based networks, that's not hard (and is the scenario I was
referring to)
but when we start talking about mars (and possibly even the moon) the existing
networking protocols are going to time out. I expect that for a long time it's
going to be some sort of batch protocol, possibly pulling UUCP back out and
using it (with some forward error correction at the link layer) rather than the
interactive protocols that we see in use today.
David Lang
On Mon, 18 Sep 2023, Jorge Amodio wrote:
I believe that a better definition and characterization of "NTN" would be
appropriate.
NTN can represent a yuuuuuuuuge space... networking to Proxima Centauri
could be considered NTN, but I bet you will have a completely different set
of challenges than LEO, MEO, GEO, etc.
My .02
Jorge
On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 8:01 PM David Lang <da...@lang.hm> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2023, Hesham ElBakoury wrote:
My understanding is that for integrated NTN and Terrestrial network we
may
need new or enhanced routing protocols. There are many publications in
this
area.
I don't see how starlink hops have to be treated any differently than
terrestrial tunnels (think frame relay networks that overlay a virtual
network
on top of the physical network, encrypted or not). There probably are new
routing protocols that will handle these better than current ones, but I
see
that a matter of such links being more common, rather than being
fundementally
different.
I do see that in the future, if/as information about the in-space routing
becomes more open (and I strongly suspect, stabilizes more) that there
will be
more that can be done, and at some point it may even make sense to allow
for
'peering' between satellites from different providers (which would require
standardization of the in-space signals and protocols)
I may be missing something at this point (I don't claim to be a networking
expert, but I'm seeing buzzwords here, but not an explination of why
normal IP
routing isn't sufficient.
David Lang
I suggest that you discuss your view in int-sat email list (copied)
Thanks
Hesham
On Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 5:31 PM David Lang <da...@lang.hm> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2023, Hesham ElBakoury wrote:
Given the discussions in this email thread, what IETF should
standardize
in
priority order for the integrated NTN terrestrial networks?
I don't see why you need to do any particular standardization to
integrate
things like starlink into terrestrial networks.
Just like IETF didn't need to standardize ethernet/token
ring/arcnet/modems to
make them compatible with each other. They all talk IP, and a computer
with a
link to each of them can serve as a gateway (and this included
proprietary
modems that were not compatible with anything else, the network didn't
care)
Starlink is just another IP path, all the tools that you use with any
other ISP
work on that path (or are restricted like many other consumer ISPs with
dynamic
addressing, no inbound connections, no BGP peering, etc. No reason that
the
those couldn't work, SpaceX just opts not to support them on consumer
dishes)
I'll turn the question back to you, what is the problem that you think
is
there
that needs to be solved?
David Lang
Thanks,
Hesham
On Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 12:59 PM David Lang via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
it's very clear that there is a computer in the dishy that you are
talking
to.
You get the network connection while the dishy is not connected to the
satellites (there's even a status page and controls, stowing and
unstowing
for
example)
I think we've seen that the dishy is running linux (I know the routers
run
an
old openwrt), but I don't remember the details of the dishy software.
David Lang
On Sun, 17 Sep 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:21:50 +0200
From: Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Reply-To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petre...@gmail.com>
To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration of
Satellites and
Terrestial Networks
Le 16/09/2023 à 01:32, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a écrit :
On 16/09/2023 5:52 am, David Lang wrote:
In addition to that Ulrich says, the dishy is a full computer, it's
output is ethernet/IP and with some adapters or cable changes, you
can plug it directly into a router.
We've done that with the Yaosheng PoE Dishy adapter - actually
plugged
a DHCP client straight in - and it "works" but with a noticeably
higher rate of disconnects.
It is good to know one can plug a DHCP client into the Ethernet of
the
DISHY and receive DHCP replies.
But that would be only a lead into what kind of DHCPv4 is supported,
or
not.
I would ask to know whether the DHCP server runs on the DISHY, or
whether it is on the ground network of starlink, i.e. the reply to
DHCP
request comes after 50ms, or after 500microseconds (timestamp
difference
can be seen in the wireshark run on that Ethernet).
This (DHCP server daemon on dishy or on ground segment) has an impact
of
how IPv6 can be, or is, made to work.
This kind of behaviour of DHCP - basically asking who allocates an
address - has seen a continous evolution in 3GPP cellular networks
since
they appeared. Nowadays the DHCP behaviour is very complex in a 3GPP
network; even in a typical smartphone there are intricacies about
where
and how the DHCP client and server works. With it comes the problem
of
/64 in cellular networks (which some dont call a problem, but I do).
So, it would be interesting to see whether starlink has the same /64
problem as 3GPP has, or is free of it (simply put: can I connect
several
Ethernet subnets in my home to starlink, in native IPv6 that is, or
not?).
Alex
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