On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm
<r...@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, they
have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is
empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with users, the
entire network collapses.
Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, so it's
solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and louder if
possible), which just creates more interference for other users and reduces the
available airtime.
I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over 100 APs
for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the attendees
bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be re-used
more readily.
How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as
of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you
repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)
no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people commenting on
how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't get good
monitoring in place. No cake yet.
I think this is what you mean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0
Did you get any good stats?
Run cake anywhere?
in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but with wifi
too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest possible
number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.
and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for your
uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to your
users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and airtime
problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's
scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). Wire/fiber for the
uplink is much better.
David Lang
On Wed, 15 Mar
2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge
part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try to
overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds into
the next home/suite/apartment etc.
In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output
turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away
(through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' model,
ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires
infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today and
accounts for most access complaints.
Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID
closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and
likely fixed position ) antennas.
regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem
and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is
already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that are
top sellers and top performers today.
IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of
powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network. I have
some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works
fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm
seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n
radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This model,
with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7
per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable by
consumers setup.
WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and
co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in
early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).
IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructure
to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security and
liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by
stakeholders of those networks.
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcma...@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very
low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to
a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers
per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates
combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't
high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog
park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block
to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
systems, etc.
The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and
leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH
too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than
AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add
a zero (or multiple by 10)
Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
engineering resources assigned.
Bob
On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
<rjmcma...@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has
to halt.
The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
room.
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