Is the dry system water delivery software capable of modeling this configuration, using a given water supply?
Best. Bruce Verhei > On 10/27/2021 9:50 AM Kevin Hall via Sprinklerforum > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > If the pipe marked in red is removed and capped off, it eliminates any > split flows/transfer lines on the branch lines. So with the red pipe > removed I would define it as a tree. With the red pipe installed, I would > define it as a grid. > > The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal > interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee > Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no > liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be > considered the official position of the NFPA or its technical committees. > AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services, and this > opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such. > > > Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE > > Coordinator, Engineering and Technical Services > > American Fire Sprinkler Association > > [email protected] > > 214-349-5971 > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:47 PM J H via Sprinklerforum < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > So, for discussions sake take a look at the image link - what would you all > > call this system? I have my opinion but I don't see how it's much different > > than Ed's original drawing: > > https://ibb.co/xSW04dj > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 9:46 AM J H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > So, for discussions sake take a look at the image link - what would you > > > all call this system? I have my opinion but I don't see how it's much > > > different than Ed's original drawing: > > > https://ibb.co/xSW04dj > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 9:40 AM Kevin Hall <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Yes, I see that now... looks like I have another PI to add to the NFPA > > 13 > > >> list. Look for that line of sprinklers to be removed in the 2025 edition > > >> haha. > > >> > > >> The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal > > >> interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing > > Committee > > >> Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes > > no > > >> liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be > > >> considered the official position of the NFPA or its technical > > committees. > > >> AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services, and this > > >> opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such. > > >> > > >> > > >> Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE > > >> > > >> Coordinator, Engineering and Technical Services > > >> > > >> American Fire Sprinkler Association > > >> > > >> [email protected] > > >> > > >> 214-349-5971 > > >> > > >> > > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:19 PM J H via Sprinklerforum < > > >> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Kevin, > > >>> That's true for most of the sprinklers in the diagram but look at > > figure > > >>> A.3.3.206.6 (2019) - the farthest loop from the supply has sprinklers > > on > > >>> it > > >>> and it's connecting both loops - those sprinklers are receiving water > > >>> from > > >>> two mains. Likewise, per the definition of a main the only main in Ed's > > >>> example is the center line. Everything else are looped branchlines per > > >>> the > > >>> definitions. > > >>> > > >>> JH > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 9:09 AM Kevin Hall via Sprinklerforum < > > >>> [email protected]> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > The annex shows the branch lines fed by the cross main from two > > >>> directions, > > >>> > the sprinkler can still only receive water from one direction from > > the > > >>> > branch line... that is the distinction in the definition. > > >>> > > > >>> > The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal > > >>> > interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing > > >>> Committee > > >>> > Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA > > >>> assumes no > > >>> > liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to > > >>> be > > >>> > considered the official position of the NFPA or its technical > > >>> committees. > > >>> > AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services, and > > this > > >>> > opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such. > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE > > >>> > > > >>> > Coordinator, Engineering and Technical Services > > >>> > > > >>> > American Fire Sprinkler Association > > >>> > > > >>> > [email protected] > > >>> > > > >>> > 214-349-5971 > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:05 PM J H via Sprinklerforum < > > >>> > [email protected]> wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> > > I have a problem with the simplified definition floated out here > > >>> that a > > >>> > > grid system is one that feeds a sprinkler from two directions > > >>> because of > > >>> > > the illustration of a looped system in the annex of '13 which shows > > >>> > > sprinklers attached to the end portion of the loop resulting in > > those > > >>> > > sprinklers receiving water from two directions. Technically the > > only > > >>> > cross > > >>> > > main is the center piping - everything else are looped > > branchlines. I > > >>> > would > > >>> > > be prepared for kickback from a knowledgeable AHJ. I would > > personally > > >>> > avoid > > >>> > > a design like this if at all possible to avoid the headache of > > >>> hashing it > > >>> > > out w/ an AHJ. But if it's the difference between a system like > > this > > >>> and > > >>> > a > > >>> > > fire pump it might be worth the fight. > > >>> > > > > >>> > > JH > > >>> > > > > >>> > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 6:04 AM Sean Conlin via Sprinklerforum < > > >>> > > [email protected]> wrote: > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > If you were to put caps on the left and right lines going north > > and > > >>> > > south, > > >>> > > > it resembles a compound gridded system and a sprinkler can > > receive > > >>> > water > > >>> > > > from both sides. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > The east and west lines are essentially the mains and so is the > > 4" > > >>> in > > >>> > the > > >>> > > > middle. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Yes is has a looped piping arrangement and is symmetrical but it > > >>> is a > > >>> > > > gridded system by NFPA-13 definition. If you were to not tie the > > >>> lines > > >>> > > > together, it would be a loop. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Regards, > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Sean W. Conlin > > >>> > > > E:[email protected] > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > This message, including any attachments is considered > > confidential > > >>> and > > >>> > > for > > >>> > > > use only by the intended recipient(s). > > >>> > > > Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly > > >>> prohibited. > > >>> > > > Please delete this communication and notify > > >>> > > > Demand Sprinkler Design Inc. if you are not the intended > > recipient > > >>> or > > >>> > > have > > >>> > > > received this message in error. Demand > > >>> > > > Sprinkler Design Inc. accepts no responsibility or liability for > > >>> any > > >>> > loss > > >>> > > > or damage from use, including damage from viruses. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > -----Original Message----- > > >>> > > > From: Ed Kramer <[email protected]> > > >>> > > > Sent: October 26, 2021 1:31 PM > > >>> > > > To: [email protected] > > >>> > > > Subject: Gridded dry system > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Is this sprinkler system a gridded system? I've avoided this > > >>> type of > > >>> > > > design in the past for dry systems because it 'kinda' a grid, but > > >>> not > > >>> > > > really. Now I'm questioning my questioning. What are your > > >>> thoughts? > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Reference NFPA 13 (2019) sections 8.2.3.10 and 3.3.206.5. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/u2hw3cbvlga4fcq/Dry%20Attic%20System.pdf?dl=0 > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Ed Kramer > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> > > > [email protected] > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> > > [email protected] > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > >>> > > > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> > [email protected] > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > >>> > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > >>> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
