On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 9:03 AM Frediano Ziglio <fzig...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > Well... Your examples are contradicting: the "master/slave" relation used > in electronics or psychology are re-using the slavery concepts too... This > doesn't make it right :-) > > That depends on the etymology and history, not an expert on this. > I think there's a mild root, but still this require some technical > language explanation. > They can contradict only if they came from 2 separate roots, if this is > true is means the there are multiple concepts involved not only one. > > Now I'm not working in electronics or psychology, so I'm not going to try > and change their wording. > > Regarding changing it now rather than waiting: Daniel is mentioning two > hints - git, or github. As our code is hosted in gitlab, I would add that > one too :) > The idea being that if they choose a new word, it will become the new > default, and we could align with them for consistency, rather than arguing > among us and picking a potentially different name > > It makes sense, but more at Gitlab level, not a world global de-facto for > me > I agree that it makes sense to wait for gitlab or git projects decide > This doesn't prevent us from changing words that are in our code (like > blacklist/whitelist?). I think there's not a lot of them. > > Regards, > Julien > > > Le jeu. 2 juil. 2020 à 16:09, Frediano Ziglio <fzig...@redhat.com> a > écrit : > >> >> > On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 04:15:07PM +0200, Victor Toso wrote: >> > > Hi, >> > > >> > > On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 10:03:10AM +0200, Kevin Pouget wrote: >> > > > Hello SPICE community, >> > > > >> > > > following Chris Wright (Red Hat CTO) blog post on "Making open >> > > > source more inclusive by eradicating problematic language" [1], >> > > > I would like to suggest that we have a look at SPICE source >> > > > code to find out if/where such language is used and how to >> > > > remove it. >> > > > >> > > > To illustrate the motivations of this move, consider the phrase >> > > > "the final solution". I am quite sure you would agree that >> > > > these words cannot be used inside a project. You would agree >> > > > because the WWII events are still in minds and not so ancient >> > > > yet. Git "master", or the "master/slave" pattern may not >> > > > trigger similar thoughts if your ancestors didn't suffer >> > > > slavery; "whitelist/blacklist" neither, if the color of your >> > > > skin doesn't get you into trouble (white=allow, black=deny). >> > > > Overall, I would advise, when thinking about these questions, >> > > > not to forget on which side your history/country/skin >> > > > color/sexual orientation sits you. If it's the oppressor side, >> > > > you're not at the right place to say it's not relevant. >> > > > >> > > > --- >> > > > >> > > > I had a quick `grep` look at SPICE code base, searching for >> > > > `blacklist/whitelist/slave` and I could only find very few >> > > > occurrences of these words, which is nice. Can you find other >> > > > problem words? >> > > > >> > > > `master` is used for git default's branch, but not much >> > > > elsewhere. Let's discuss if we could get rid of this one, for >> > > > instance changing it to `main` (just a suggestion). I don't >> > > > think that it can break that many things (only the CI comes to >> > > > my mind, where the `master` branch may be treated differently) >> > > > as git name default branch's name is often omitted in the usual >> > > > workflows. >> > > > >> > > > Please share your thoughts about this >> > > >> > > Not a native english speaker but I've read a few discussions >> > > around the user of master as git as in master copy instead of >> > > master/slave. Another examples of the use of master from native >> > > speakers included master as in school teacher or someone that is >> > > in charge of something (the offense being where the subject of >> > > control is the slave). >> > > >> > > Still, I don't really mind to changing it to main, even more if >> > > there are people that feel this can really be offensive in some >> > > way.. >> > >> > I think the primary downside in changing the branch name is if we >> > end up with different branch names chosen by each project. There is >> > value in the fact that essentially every project uses the same >> > branch name for their latest development branch, as it gives end >> > users consistent expectations. >> > >> > I'm in favour of changing the branch name, but my inclination is >> > to wait and see a little longer, in order to identify what the >> > new defacto standard ends up being. "main" is a good bet as a new >> > standard, but it would be nice to see it "in action". >> > >> > I'd be looking for two possible signs >> > >> > Whether the Git maintainers themselves decide to standardize >> > on a new term. >> > >> > What GitHub actually decide upon & roll out. >> > >> > Either of those two decisions will set a defacto standard across a >> > vast number of projects, and thus it will be beneficial to have >> > alignment with those decisisons. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Daniel >> >> Hi, >> I have different feeling about these changes. On one side I agree with >> Michal that these changes appears positive but they are potentially >> aggravating the real issue just hiding the problem. >> About the words I think "master" have multiple meaning, removing blindly >> because some meaning could remember some bad memories looks excessive. >> And even if this word is used in the "master&slave" reference hinting >> human slavery there are on the other side many uses (like master&slave >> relationship in electronic circuit or master&slave used in communication >> or in psychology) were this is far from human slavery. >> "blacklist" is very similar, it's used in a lot of places without negative >> references, "black" is simply a color which, being usually associated >> with no light is seen negative, not for race discrimination (like yin >> and yang concept). I checked multiple dictionaries and hardly find >> races references for "blacklist". For the same reasons we should remove >> wording like "dark", "white", "yellow", "black". >> >> About the "master" branch technically can be changed easily. I won't >> wait a "de-facto" change, if all project would wait a "de-facto" change >> the only name would be "master"! So if most of the group agree to change >> and like "main" I would just rename to "main". >> >> Regards, >> Frediano >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spice-devel mailing list >> Spice-devel@lists.freedesktop.org >> https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/spice-devel >> >> > > -- > > Julien ROPÉ > > Senior Software Engineer - SPICE > > jr...@redhat.com > <https://www.redhat.com/> > > > _______________________________________________ > Spice-devel mailing list > Spice-devel@lists.freedesktop.org > https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/spice-devel >
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