As the sponsor of the temporary fix, thank you for following up and for
filing this bug! +1 from me
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Title:
[FFe]: re-enable DFLTCC on s390x
To
Public bug reported:
Unable to determine what system updates are available
An unresolvable problem occurred while calculating the system update. If none
of these apply, please report the bug using the 'ubuntu-bug ubuntu
release-upgrader-core' command in a terminal. If you want to investigate thi
** Changed in: dpkg (Debian)
Status: Unknown => New
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Title:
update-initramfs is called twice for the same kernel
To manage notifications
** Description changed:
DFLTCC on s390x is a feature that was disabled to address an FTBFS in
that code. This was done before feature freeze in [1].
- We later found out the real fix[2] for the FTBFS, and it's in an MP attached
to this bug. The diff is two fold:
+ We later found out the re
Public bug reported:
There is a kernel error log showing "xilinx_rsa xilinx_rsa.0: Failed to
register akcipher alg.".
This is caused by cra_driver_name being the same in xilinx-rsa.c and
zynqmp-rsa.c ("zynqmp-rsa").
Pick up the following two commits from Xilinx downstream kernel that
deprecates
To add, Daniel seems to be tagging a different issue?
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Title:
Restarting Gnome Shell with Alt-F2 R freezes Gnome in Xorg
To manage notifications
I was trying today to get one of the smartcards I have to work in the
snap setup, sadly I had not the time to reverse engineer it to make it
supported by OpenSC, so I had to rely on the provided closed binary (one
of those bit4id)...
The good thing of those it's that they're still generally quite
Public bug reported:
from gdb:
i3status: trying to auto-detect output_format setting
i3status: auto-detected "term"
*** buffer overflow
The pertinent line from .i3status is this:
wireless _first_ {
format_up = "W: (%essid - %quality) %ip"
format_down = "W: down"
}
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** Description changed:
- NOTE: this should be processed at the same time as bug 2100639, they are
- fairly interdependent.
+ NOTE: this should be processed at the same time as bug 2100639 and bug
+ 2100646, they are fairly interdependent.
The packages marked as affected on this bug need remo
All autopkgtests for the newly accepted zfs-linux (2.2.6-1ubuntu1.1) for
oracular have finished running.
The following regressions have been reported in tests triggered by the package:
zfs-linux/2.2.6-1ubuntu1.1 (i386)
Please visit the excuses page listed below and investigate the failures,
pr
This bug still present on Ubuntu 22.04 but appear not to be on 24.04.
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Title:
blinking app-indication area with Ubuntu 22.04
To manage notificat
Public bug reported:
Using Ubuntu 24.04.5 The gnome screen display is locked at 2048x1152
(16:9) with no drop down options.
ProblemType: Bug
DistroRelease: Ubuntu 22.04
Package: gnome (not installed)
ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 6.8.0-52.53~22.04.1-generic 6.8.12
Uname: Linux 6.8.0-52-generic x86
is good
mfohrer@kb-test:~$ wget -O /dev/null http://speedtest.belwue.net/10G
--2025-03-02 07:17:18-- http://speedtest.belwue.net/10G
Resolving speedtest.belwue.net (speedtest.belwue.net)... 129.143.4.238,
2001:7c0::238
Connecting to speedtest.belwue.net (speedtest.belwue.net)|129.143.4.238|:80..
** Summary changed:
- Problems with kernel image 6.8.0-53
+ Problems with kernel image 6.8.0-52/54
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Title:
Problems with kernel image 6.8.0-52/5
Verified to pass boot testing on NVIDIA Grace instance.
** Changed in: linux-azure-nvidia (Ubuntu Noble)
Status: Fix Committed => Fix Released
** Tags removed: verification-needed-noble-linux-azure-nvidia
** Tags added: verification-done-noble-linux-azure-nvidia
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Performance verified by Microsoft.
** Changed in: linux-azure-nvidia (Ubuntu Noble)
Status: Fix Committed => Fix Released
** Tags removed: verification-needed-noble-linux-azure-nvidia
** Tags added: verification-done-noble-linux-azure-nvidia
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Performance verified by Microsoft.
** Changed in: linux-azure-nvidia (Ubuntu Noble)
Status: Fix Committed => Fix Released
** Tags removed: verification-needed-noble-linux-azure-nvidia
** Tags added: verification-done-noble-linux-azure-nvidia
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** Changed in: linux-azure-nvidia (Ubuntu Noble)
Status: Fix Committed => Fix Released
** Tags removed: verification-needed-noble-linux-azure-nvidia
** Tags added: verification-done-noble-linux-azure-nvidia
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I am using mate desktop. All of the sudden a whole bunch of gtk things
are broken. I can't use Libreoffice, alacarte, libremenu, etc. All
Python namespace issues. I tried re-installing python from the dead-
snakes PPA, no help.
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Regarding an old version of qpdf, please see
https://launchpad.net/~qpdf/+archive/ubuntu/qpdf, my personal PPA for
qpdf. (I'm the qpdf author and debian maintainer, and this uses the
official debian packages.) For technical reasons, the latest few
releases haven't been backported to Ubuntu 20.04, b
** Changed in: linux-xilinx (Ubuntu Noble)
Status: New => Fix Committed
** Changed in: linux-xilinx (Ubuntu)
Status: New => Fix Committed
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I join the : journalctl -b x for kernel 6.8.0-54
** Attachment added: "log_journal_err_6.8.0-54_boot_1.txt"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/2097801/+attachment/5861571/+files/log_journal_err_6.8.0-54_boot_1.txt
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Public bug reported:
GNU Image Manipulation Program version 2.10.36
git-describe: GIMP_2_10_36
Build: unknown rev 0 for linux
# C compiler #
Using built-in specs.
COLLECT_GCC=gcc
COLLECT_LTO_WRAPPER=/usr/libexec/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/13/lto-wrapper
OFFLOAD_TARGET_NA
Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users.
** Changed in: nvidia-graphics-drivers-570 (Ubuntu Noble)
Status: New => Confirmed
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Public bug reported:
alacarte
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/bin/alacarte", line 23, in
from Alacarte.MainWindow import main
File "/usr/share/alacarte/Alacarte/MainWindow.py", line 21, in
gi.require_version('GMenu', '3.0')
File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/gi/__in
All of the sudden MANY applications using GTK3 on Ubuntu 24.04 are
BROKEN in similar manner. Missing Gmenu, Missing Gtk3, etc. I think
the python environment is screwed up yet again.
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ht
May be related to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-
multiload/+bug/1973358
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Title:
Multiload appears as a small bar in panel
Public bug reported:
error installing this package.
ProblemType: Package
DistroRelease: Ubuntu 20.04
Package: nvidia-kernel-source-470 470.256.02-0ubuntu0.20.04.1
ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 5.15.0-131.141~20.04.1-generic 5.15.168
Uname: Linux 5.15.0-131-generic x86_64
NonfreeKernelModules: zfs
OK, thanks for that!
I have prepared one final test kernel in which I have moved back to the
HEAD of my branch and reverted commit
37c9f14850805ba7a1acdf9aad3ee3950f7945ba.
Can you please check this one?
https://people.canonical.com/~tswhison/bugs/2098961/revert-37c9f14.tar.gz
It will tell us w
Public bug reported:
mozo
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/bin/mozo", line 23, in
from Mozo.MainWindow import MainWindow
File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/Mozo/MainWindow.py", line 21, in
gi.require_version('Gtk', '3.0')
File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/gi/__ini
>> The manufacturer is able to reproduce the same issue. They have
reported that the same issue does not occur if you swap the CM4 with a
CM5, but I need to verify this once I obtain a CM5
Confirmed - this issue does not occur with the CM5.
For whatever reason, it's specific the CM4
--
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Public bug reported:
On Ubuntu 22.04 LTS, python-django fails to build from source due to a
failing test.
Traceback error:
=
ERROR: test_value_placeholder_with_char_field
(forms_tests.tests.test_validators.ValidatorCustomMessageTests) [URLValidator]
(value='http://[::1:2::3]/')
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Public bug reported:
This is a tracking bug for merging rust-cargo-c 0.10.8-1 into Plucky
** Affects: rust-cargo-c (Ubuntu)
Importance: Undecided
Status: New
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Running Mint 22 with the 6.8.0-53 kernel - HP EliteDesk 800 G1 mini-PC
with Intel audio via Pipewire...using a DisplayPort plug on the computer
side into a DisplayPort-to-HDMI adapter, HDMI end plugged into a TV.
Worked perfectly on Mint 21.3 (which used the older 5.15 kernel).
This bug is still g
** Description changed:
5.15.0-131 works
5.15.0-133 no networking
This fix
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/8a7d12d674ac6f2147c18f36d1e15f1a48060edf
- is included in 133. It cause my usb tether adapter to be named eth0
+ is included in 133. It caused my usb tether adapter
sorry for not immediately reply the email, the bug is still exist in v5.19.
and i think the kernel version v6.5 backwards has same bug behavior
Pada Kam, 27 Feb 2025 pukul 08.15 Tim Whisonant <2097...@bugs.launchpad.net>
menulis:
> ** Changed in: linux (Ubuntu)
>Status: New => Incomplete
[Expired for ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) because there has been no
activity for 60 days.]
** Changed in: ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu)
Status: Incomplete => Expired
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https:
sorry I foudn this bug months after fixing it...
** Changed in: golang-github-antonini-golibjpegturbo (Ubuntu)
Status: New => Fix Released
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Public bug reported:
menulibre
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/bin/menulibre", line 26, in
gi.require_version('Gtk', '3.0')
File "/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/gi/__init__.py", line 122, in
require_version
raise ValueError('Namespace %s not available' % namespace)
Valu
For the record, requested due to rust-cargo 0.85. This was reverted
temporarily to 0.84 for the libgit2 1.9 transition to finish, but has
been put back to 0.85, thus requiring this merge.
** Tags added: update-excuse
** Changed in: rust-cargo-c (Ubuntu)
Status: New => Fix Committed
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Requisite commit is in release and source tree.
** Tags removed: verification-needed-jammy-linux-azure
** Tags added: verification-done-jammy-linux-azure
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Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users.
** Changed in: nvidia-graphics-drivers-570 (Ubuntu Focal)
Status: New => Confirmed
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Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users.
** Changed in: nvidia-graphics-drivers-570 (Ubuntu)
Status: New => Confirmed
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Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users.
** Changed in: nvidia-graphics-drivers-570 (Ubuntu Jammy)
Status: New => Confirmed
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Status changed to 'Confirmed' because the bug affects multiple users.
** Changed in: nvidia-graphics-drivers-570 (Ubuntu Oracular)
Status: New => Confirmed
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Public bug reported:
5.15.0-131 works
5.15.0-133 no networking
This fix
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/8a7d12d674ac6f2147c18f36d1e15f1a48060edf
is included in 133. It cause my usb tether adapter to be named eth0
instead of usb0. I have another adapter that gets renamed (via netplan)
t
** Information type changed from Private Security to Public Security
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Title:
please sync php-twig from Debian
To manage notifications about this
Hello Danilo, or anyone else affected,
Accepted zfs-linux into oracular-proposed. The package will build now
and be available at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zfs-
linux/2.2.6-1ubuntu1.1 in a few hours, and then in the -proposed
repository.
Please help us by testing this new package. See
I re-verified the fix using systemd/udev 249.11-0ubuntu3.15 from jammy-
proposed:
ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ ls -alh /dev/ptp_kvm
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Feb 28 15:15 /dev/ptp_kvm -> ptp0
ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ sudo udevadm trigger
ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ ls -alh /dev/ptp_kvm
ls: cannot access '/dev/ptp_kvm': No such
** Changed in: linux (Ubuntu)
Assignee: Benjamin Wheeler (benjaminwheeler) => (unassigned)
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Title:
[Ubuntu 24.04.01]SR-IOV virtual function
@dtl131,
Thank you; this actually clears up quite a lot for me. As I have
consistently mentioned in all of my posts, I am not proficient at
understanding the inner workings of Linux, or at reporting bugs, as this
is my very first one ever.
I think I will just upgrade to Ubuntu 25.04 after it's be
Thank you, Daniel, for all your help.
I'm sure I can in fact run the command as you suggest, but also, as I
recently posted on this topic/thread, I'm only doing things at this point
to try to help others, partly by learning about difficulties in the current
"ecosystem" and reporting those.
I will
Still not fixed for 24.04 LTS. Any update?
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Title:
"SyntaxWarning: invalid escape sequence" during fail2ban install in
Ubuntu 24.04
To manage
Public bug reported:
Getting this error randomly throughout the day, sometimes every hour
resulting in a freeze [drm:nv_drm_atomic_commit [nvidia_drm]] *ERROR*
[nvidia-drm] [GPU ID 0x0100] Flip event timeout on head 0 - I'm
running 570.86.16
ProblemType: Bug
DistroRelease: Ubuntu 24.10
Packag
** Tags added: plucky
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Title:
[regression] On-screen keyboard (OSK) on touch screen does not seem to
work at all under Xorg
To manage notifica
Simon, your FTBFS fix FTBFS :P
** Changed in: clazy (Ubuntu)
Status: Fix Committed => In Progress
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Title:
clazy 1.13-1 FTBFS with llvm-to
Alternative: flash-kernel (and a few other packages) need to depend on
(initramfs-tools | dracut) instead.
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Title:
dracut install removes flash-k
Public bug reported:
Your hardware: HP EliteDesk 800 G1 SFF with NVIDIA GT 620
Ubuntu version: 24.04
The issue: Second monitor works only with cursor visible when using
Wayland with Nouveau driver
The solution that worked: Switching to Xorg by setting
WaylandEnable=false in /etc/gdm3/custom.con
Private bug reported:
The laptop webcam is not supported/detected.
ProblemType: Bug
DistroRelease: Ubuntu 24.10
Package: linux-image-6.11.0-18-generic 6.11.0-18.18
ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 6.11.0-18.18-generic 6.11.11
Uname: Linux 6.11.0-18-generic x86_64
ApportVersion: 2.30.0-0ubuntu4
Archit
Here's an absolutely nutty thought. If packages are held back for any
reason whatsoever...then don't show them and don't count them as
upgradeable because...well they're not. I see no value whatsoever in
saying we're holding this back due to x,y,z reason. Just wait and push
the updates when they
** Information type changed from Private to Public
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Title:
Thinkpad carbon X11 Gen 12 Webcam not supported
To manage notifications about this bu
The initramfs-tools code from the hooks/fsck:
```
for type in $fsck_types; do
if prog="$(command -v "fsck.${type}")"; then
copy_exec "$prog"
else
echo "W: /sbin/fsck.${type} doesn't exist, can't install to initramfs"
>&2
fi
done
```
So we could just avoid printing th
Public bug reported:
[Impact]
evdi-dkms does not compile from source in Plucky with kernel 6.14:
evdi_drm_drv.c:150:10: error: ‘struct drm_driver’ has no member named ‘date’
150 | .date = DRIVER_DATE,
| ^~~~
In file included from evdi_drm_drv.c:32:
evdi_platform_drv.h:2
The debdiff in attach allows to build evdi-dkms on linux-6.14
** Patch added: "evdi-dkms-plucky-6.14.debdiff"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evdi/+bug/2100652/+attachment/5861289/+files/evdi-dkms-plucky-6.14.debdiff
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p: ubuntu:GNOME
Date: Sat Mar 1 10:38:26 2025
DistUpgraded: Fresh install
DistroCodename: plucky
DistroVariant: ubuntu
ExtraDebuggingInterest: Yes
GraphicsCard:
LiveMediaBuild: Ubuntu 25.04 "Plucky Puffin" - Daily arm64 (20250301)
Lspci-vt:
-[0002:00]---00.0-[01-ff]00.0 Shenzhen Union
Gonna try disabling fbdev - will update here
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Title:
System freeze which requires replugging HDMI
To manage notifications about this bug go to:
All autopkgtests for the newly accepted linux-restricted-modules-hwe-5.15
(5.15.0-135.146~20.04.1) for focal have finished running.
The following regressions have been reported in tests triggered by the package:
nvidia-graphics-drivers-390/unknown (armhf)
Please visit the excuses page listed be
** Merge proposal linked:
https://code.launchpad.net/~ahasenack/ubuntu/+source/gzip/+git/gzip/+merge/482161
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Title:
[FFe]: re-enable DFLTCC o
** Changed in: gzip (Ubuntu Plucky)
Assignee: (unassigned) => Andreas Hasenack (ahasenack)
** Changed in: gzip (Ubuntu Plucky)
Status: New => In Progress
** Changed in: gzip (Ubuntu Plucky)
Importance: Undecided => High
** Summary changed:
- dfltcc.c FTBFS on s390x
+ [FFe]: re-en
** Description changed:
- I'm still gathering information about this bug.
+ DFLTCC on s390x is a feature that was disabled to address an FTBFS in
+ that code. This was done before feature freeze in [1].
- UPDATE #1: see comment #2, this started out as an FTBFS.
- UPDATE #2: filed upstream bug a
** Also affects: linux-xilinx (Ubuntu Noble)
Importance: Undecided
Status: New
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Title:
crypto: Kconfig: Resolve Xilinx RSA driver confl
Oh, OK. I didn't know that, of course. I probably will have time to do that
after I get back home tomorrow evening, or Monday at the latest.
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 8:25 PM Daniel Letzeisen <2100...@bugs.launchpad.net>
wrote:
> You can run the command and apport-collect should automatically attac
** Package changed: ubuntu => linux (Ubuntu)
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Title:
System freeze which requires replugging HDMI
To manage notifications about this bug go to:
** Description changed:
+ [ Impact ]
+
+ Upstream kernel API changes in v6.13. The details can be found in the
+ below.
+
+ The solution to the two API changes is to upgrade backport-iwlwifi to
+ core93 in bug 2098677 as it becomes available, and to add backward
+ compatible implementation for t
Tested on focal-proposed:
---
Manually verified the fix by following test steps
https://github.com/ZeyadYasser/snapd/blob/f162216e13a31d423960ec198ad0f586b1192830/tests/regression/lp-2084730/task.yaml
Result: PASS
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** Description changed:
[ Impact ]
Upstream kernel API changes in v6.13. The details can be found in the
below.
The solution to the two API changes is to upgrade backport-iwlwifi to
core93 in bug 2098677 as it becomes available, and to add backward
compatible implementation for t
** Description changed:
+ [ Impact ]
+
+ Upstream kernel API changes in v6.13. The details can be found in the
+ below.
+
+ The solution to the two API changes is to upgrade backport-iwlwifi to
+ core93 in bug 2098677 as it becomes available, and to add backward
+ compatible implementation for t
This bug was fixed in the package lxd-installer - 11
---
lxd-installer (11) plucky; urgency=medium
* Better cope with the snapstore not always being available (LP: #2100564)
- lxd-installer-service: retry failed snap install up to 3 times
- scripts/lxc: abort quickly on erro
Right, so it seems that you're still running the previous release as the
fixes are in 2.2.2-0ubuntu9.2. This version will be released built into
the kernel in probably the 2025.03.17 cycle at the latest.
I was able to get the update from the dkms package by enabling noble-
proposed (https://wiki.u
** Description changed:
+ [ Impact ]
+
+ backport-iwlwifi-dkms, as a dkms package, is meant to provide
+ availability of an updated, if not the latest, driver to previously
+ released kernels. While maintaining such compatibility through all
+ multiple, branching kernel releases, some of the chan
** Description changed:
+ [ Impact ]
+
+ The upstream has released core93 that is meant to match the kernel
+ development in v6.14.
+
+ Pack the new core93 release, drop two upstreamed patches, bump
+ OBSOLETE_BY to 6.14.
+
+ [ Test Plan ]
+
+ 1. Install kernel headers for Plucky. Currently th
** Changed in: ruby-celluloid-io (Debian)
Status: New => Fix Released
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Title:
[RM] Remove packages blocking ruby-celluloid migration
To m
** Description changed:
- I'm experiencing no wifi driver found issue.
+ [ Impact ]
+
+ 1. v6.2 commit f571faf6e443b ("timers: Provide timer_shutdown[_sync]()")
+ was not backported to any stable trees, but it may be picked due to CVE
+ or other reasons to oem-6.1 and generic-5.15. This, while n
** Description changed:
[ Impact ]
Upstream kernel API changes in v6.13. The details can be found in the
below.
The solution to the two API changes is to upgrade backport-iwlwifi to
core93 in bug 2098677 as it becomes available, and to add backward
compatible implementation for t
** Description changed:
[ Impact ]
Upstream kernel API changes in v6.14. The details can be found in the
below.
The solution to the two API changes is to upgrade backport-iwlwifi to
core93 in bug 2098677 as it becomes available, and to add backward
compatible implementation for t
** Changed in: silx (Debian)
Status: New => Fix Released
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Title:
silx/2.0.1+dfsg-3 vs pytest/8.2.1-2
To manage notifications about this b
** Description changed:
[ Impact ]
The upstream has released core93 that is meant to match the kernel
development in v6.14.
Pack the new core93 release, drop two upstreamed patches, bump
OBSOLETE_BY to 6.14.
[ Test Plan ]
1. Install kernel headers for Plucky. Currently th
** Description changed:
[ Impact ]
1. v6.2 commit f571faf6e443b ("timers: Provide timer_shutdown[_sync]()")
was not backported to any stable trees, but it may be picked due to CVE
or other reasons to oem-6.1 and generic-5.15. This, while no fixed
kernel patch level for reference, can
This is being SRU-ed along with bug 2095138. See debdiffs in
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/backport-iwlwifi-
dkms/+bug/2095138/comments/10.
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/208
** Description changed:
[ Impact ]
backport-iwlwifi-dkms, as a dkms package, is meant to provide
availability of an updated, if not the latest, driver to previously
released kernels. While maintaining such compatibility through all
multiple, branching kernel releases, some of the chan
** Description changed:
+ [ Impact ]
+
+ As the original bug description stated, detecting kernel API changes and
+ provide backward compatibility is always a difficult problem, and it can
+ be even worse when they can be cherry-picked out of the upstream order
+ for every reason.
+
+ In this is
All autopkgtests for the newly accepted zfs-linux (2.2.6-1ubuntu1.1) for
oracular have finished running.
The following regressions have been reported in tests triggered by the package:
zfs-linux/2.2.6-1ubuntu1.1 (i386)
Please visit the excuses page listed below and investigate the failures,
pr
Public bug reported:
NOTE: this should be processed at the same time as bug 2100637, they are
fairly interdependent.
QtWebKit5 is old, insecure, and has no replacement upstream for Qt 6.
Developers are recommended to use the Chromium-based QtWebEngine 5 or 6
instead.
Please remove QtWebKit5 and
And please also this PR (this one is for the originally reported dongle):
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/36572
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2097480
Title:
vrc-3nt joystick
Also reproduceable on a fresh install of Plucky.
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2098513
Title:
eglinfo -B crash (seg fault)
To manage notifications about this bug go to:
https://bugs
Patch and fix from upstream:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=66709#10
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2100598
Title:
dfltcc.c FTBFS on s390x
To manage notifications abou
*** This bug is a duplicate of bug 2063497 ***
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2063497
** This bug has been marked a duplicate of bug 2063497
MIPI camera on Lenovo Carbon X1 will not work
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** Changed in: debian
Status: New => Fix Released
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/59945
Title:
no nvidia support
To manage notifications about this bug go to:
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Hi all, I can confirm the described broadcom-sta kernel module error
messages also for Kubuntu 24.04 LTS. But in my case at an old 802.11ac
upgraded iMac6,1 there are no system freezes or crashes present.
The iMac computer is running despite those error messages stable. This
is also true for the W
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